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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Dem politicians and intellectuals sound deranged re Russia/Trump

   
Author Topic: Dem politicians and intellectuals sound deranged re Russia/Trump
LudWig
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Like, ugh, I forced myself to vote for Hillary (it felt as exciting as forcing yourself to go the dentist), but it appears all the neoconservatives and neoliberals who were so invested in her -- who were damn sure that elevating Trump was a good idea because he was "unelectable" -- have been so hurt by her loss that they've reached Birther level derangement, only much, much more voluminous.

Neoconservatives hate Russia because Russia is frustrating their desires for chaos in the middle east. Seriously, Russia is being the responsible party in frustrating neocon desires to oust Assad, the only outcome of which can be more chaos and bloodshed than if he stays in office. Oh yea and don't forget about their desired war on Iran.

Neoliberals who LOATHED Bernie Sanders and were so invested in Hillary to the point of elevating Trump in coverage during the primary because they thought he'd be unelectable vs Hillary are also using Russia hysteria in order to wage a war on the Trump presidency.

Now these groups are forming a quasi-alliance because of a shared hatred of Donald Trump, and sick idiots like David Frum and Max Boot are being elevated in "liberal" media circles because...they dislike Trump. Liberals are increasing the influence of these people, people who cheerlead and lied the country into the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

It was very creepy prior to the election when one prominent neocon after another announced support for Hillary Clinton, that centrist, warmongering buffoon.

Now she and her allies still have a grip on the Dem party and are attempting to distract from the necessary and clarifying OPEN division in the party by droning on about MUH RUSSIA.

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Rakeesh
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Yeah, all that Russia biz is made up.
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LudWig
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All that "Russia biz" continues to be noise, noise, noise without anything definately criminal ever turning up. It appears that the neoliberals and neoconservatives are primarily interested in that NOISE to drown the Trump administration in controversy as REVENGE. Of course this is assisted by the utter incompetency of the Trump administration itself in making things worse for itself by firing Comey etc, but my primary interest in this is that those who should be learning from the loss of their neoliberal centrist war-mongering candidate plan to not change their preference for this sort of candidate, but oh boy will they offer the base Hatred of Trump! Anyone else excited for Corey "I'm a big phoney" Booker's run in 2020?
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Dogbreath
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what
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Rakeesh
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Neoliberal centrist.
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Dogbreath
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I mean, I imagine you and I agree on a number of issues LudWig, but I pretty strongly believe investigating the extent of Russian interference and sabotage in the 2016 election is absolutely essential from a national security perspective, and that's a perspective that has seen pretty broad bipartisan backing. I almost certainly wouldn't classify it as just "noise."

I'd be happy to debate this, or maybe go over what parts of the investigation you think are unnecessary or whatever, but maybe could you dial it back about 8 notches or so? I'm not even sure I properly understand what you're trying to say over the volume that you're writing it at.

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theamazeeaz
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What part of this is noise? Like it's known that Russia pays people to be pro Russia in internet forums, and part of me seriously wonders if you are one of those people. We attract so many bots as it is.

Look, there's tons of evidence. As a scientist I hate conspiracy theories. I couldn't even make it through the first chapter of book on 'em. However, if you can't piece together all of the things that have come out on this and go "gee, something smells here", and then understand why it's a bad thing, you are either part of the conspiracy, or so far deep in propoganda, you need to rethink your media consumption. Or just think at all.

Let's look at this, shall we?

The only change Trump made to the Republican party platform was a softening toward Russia. Why Russia? Why now? What actions or event on the Russian's part changed this mindset?

Despite campaigning on "America First" and being extremely xenophobic, Trump goes out of his way to talk about how he believes Putin over Americans in pretty much every facet, including intelligence. Some patriotism this is.

He refuses to divest from his businesses, release taxes and disclose how he makes his money and who his creditors are (that he is in debt is well known, due to his multiple bankruptcies). Honest people have nothing to hide.

Trump sold a property to a Russian billionaire at way way above market price. The billionaire never used, visited or improved the property. Textbook money laundering.

Several people on Trump's campaign have Russia ties. After being fired, General Flynn registered as a *foreign agent*. There's also evidence that he changed plans of military campaigns to suit Turkey's needs. The Trump admin was warned on the record this guy was a spy and they ignored it. Why?

In October, Slate reported that a couple of professors accidentally discovered traffic between Trump Tower and Russian banks.

Trump Jr straight up admitted to meetings and deals that straight up violate campaign rules (snarkier redditors have pointed out all of Trump's children are Fredo Corleone). You can't use foreign money in a campaign. The end. It's why when Cards Against Humanity sold Trump/Hillary cards and were donating the profits to Hillary, they restricted sales to the USA. But meanwhile the dates of the meetings Fredo gave line up with Trump announcing that he's found dirt on Hillary. Weird.

Trump addressed Russia directly on television and said to hack his opponent? Who does that? There are plenty of American hackers to address?

Psychology of guilt. I read somewhere online that experienced investigators can tell when family members aren't the murderer because they are extremely interested in every last detail of what happened to their loved one. Guilty people already know and forget to be curious.

You can't campaign with

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Dogbreath
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Old thread, but in the off chance Ludwig isn't a Russian bot:

quote:
Originally posted by LudWig:
All that "Russia biz" continues to be noise, noise, noise without anything definately criminal ever turning up.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/politics/mueller-russia-indictments-election-interference/index.html
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Ron Lambert
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Posting on Facebook a cartoon that shows Christ and Satan competing with each other and says a vote for Hillary is a vote for Satan, is not a very weighty effort at sabotaging the election. (It is claimed that this was posted by a Russian.) While I personally agree with the sentiment, since the facts are that Hillary is a crime lord, such a cartoon would not have moved me one way or the other, beyond giving me a laugh.

Now, more telling was the disclosure of private emails from the Hillary campaign, that it is claimed Russians had a hand in hacking and making public. But the thing is, the Hillary people really did say those things. So by revealing them, the Russians actually did us all a favor, and improved our election by letting us know the truth. So that did not sabotage our election--quite the opposite. It actually interfered with Democrat attempts to sabotage the election.

If the Russians actually did attempt to skew the 2016 election against Hillary, that would seem to be a rather misguided strategy--since Hillary would have been easy for them to walk over (after all, she was part of an administration that gave 150 billion dollars to Russian ally Iran, and as Secretary of State did nothing when terrorists were killing American diplomats in Benghazi), while Trump is proving to be tougher on the Russians and Iran than any previous president since Reagan.

[ February 19, 2018, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Rakeesh
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Stay profoundly dishonest and fanatically partisan, Ron!
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Trump is proving to be tougher on the Russians and Iran than any previous president since Reagan
I'm genuinely curious, Ron: in what sense do you think Trump's foreign policy so far has been tough on the Russians?
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Ron Lambert
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Well, let's see--Trump ordered cruise missiles to attack the airport of Russian ally Assad from which he had launched a chemical attack against his own people. Trump successfully rallied the Arab nations to join in recognizing Russian ally Iran as their chief enemy. Putin sounded very upset about these things, and about Trump's clear positioning the US as an active opponent to Russian designs on Ukraine and eastern Europe in general. US Air Force jets shot down a Syrian fighter jet, and when Putin then threatened to target any US planes that fly west of the Euphrates River, Trump replied that the US will defend itself against any such attacks. Trump has shown he has the nerve to do what previous presidents have not had the gumption to do.
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TomDavidson
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Ah, so your definition of "tough on Russia" is "tough on Arab states?"
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Rakeesh
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One of Trump’s campaign managers was a paid lackey of Russian pawns in Ukraine, Ron. Trump has done the *opposite* of opposing Russian designs in Eastern Europe.
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Ron Lambert
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What gains has Russia made since President Trump took office? Compare that to all the gains Russia made while Obama was in office, especially with Hillary Clinton as his secretary of state.

Trump tries to leave the door open for doing business with Russia, if they will wise up, and decide it will be too costly to continue in their vain efforts to restore the Soviet Union. This is the carrot and stick approach. Those who have studied Russian behavior, recognize that this is how you have to deal with Russians. They make good neighbors, once you have closed all your windows and locked all your doors. (I know some Russians personally who are not like this; I am speaking of "Russians" as a collective historical national entity.)

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JanitorBlade
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What gains? They've avoided harsh bi-partisan sanctions for now because Pres. Trump refuses to enforce them. They also saw the sanctions Pres. Obama put in place for their electoral meddling rolled back.

They're doing just fine under Trump.

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Ron Lambert
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What did Obama do about Russian meddling? It has recently come out of the Mueller investigation that Obama knew about this meddling as early as 2014, and did nothing but talk, telling them to "Cut it out," as if that had any weight.

What the Obama administration did was sell 20% of America's uranium stores to Russia. Apparently Hillary Clinton made millions of dollars on the deal. Obama probably got his cut, too. And they are trying to claim Trump was guilty of collusion with Russia?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What did Obama do about Russian meddling?
Google actually answers this.

And no, it doesn't involve allowing Canadians to sell uranium stored in America to Russia. [Smile] That's only for stupid people.

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Rakeesh
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You have to pick one, Ron: Russian meddling was insignificant, having little impact on the election, or it was yuge, a major criminal enterprise for which Obama should be blamed.

Or you could go your usual dishonest route and try for both.

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Ron Lambert
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What Russians tried and what they actually accomplished are two different things. Democrats are trying to find an excuse for why they lost the 2016 election. They are just making themselves look pathetic. Like Hillary publishing new books and making new claims about why she lost the election--never of course admitting that it was her own fault, because too many people saw through her and realized that she is a crook. Those emails were pretty damning. She and her people actually said those things. The Russians didn't make anything up.

The problem with cyber warfare goes far beyond any attempts at influencing elections. Industrial as well as government espionage are their primary aims. Russia is not the only bad player in this game; also Iran, China, and North Korea have been warned against.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What Russians tried and what they actually accomplished are two different things.
What do you think they tried, and what do you think they accomplished?

quote:
The Russians didn't make anything up.
Well, let's be specific: they didn't make up the emails. They made up quite a lot of other things.

quote:
Russia is not the only bad player in this game...
In addition to Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea, the U.S. and Israel are also "bad players" when it comes to cyberwar. We're not a very nice country, either.
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Samprimary
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I would just absolutely love to see how much bot news from Russia has been traded by Ron on social media and forums

if he has a significantly active twitter account I bet it just lost thousands of followers

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Ron Lambert
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I do not participate in Twitter at all. Never have.
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Samprimary
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Russia is very unhappy about that. You would have been exceptionally useful to them if you had.

Maybe you can make up for it by rambling fake news at us in old dead forums

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Rakeesh
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Hey, Ron, what’s the lunatic fringe take on how Democrats and Hilary have managed to impugn Kushner and arrange his downgraded security clearance?
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Maybe you can make up for it by rambling fake news at us in old dead forums

Hey, now. Show some respect for the hallowed halls of Congress..
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Dogbreath
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lol
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