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Author Topic: Earth Forgotten? How do I make this possible?....
Kalvin
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I am currently in the planning stages of my first attempt at a Novel, but I've hit a bit of a road block. What I need to do is make it so the human race has progressed into space over time, and have completely forgotten about Earth. To them, the planet does not exist. People still live there, they just can't communicate with the other worlds properly.

One of the only ways I can think of to approach this is to say that, over time, the outer worlds slowly moved away from Earth, somehow there was a war on Earth and on the other colony's at somewhere near the same time, and communication was completely cut off. If you have any questions, feel free to ask! I know, this is slightly complicated....


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mythopoetic
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Ok, well, what you are talking about sounds a lot like what Asimov did in his foundation trilogy (er... well it started out as a trilogy). I can see a number of solutions. One is that humans just expanded so fast and for so long that no one really remembers which planet was the first one. It wouldn't have to be a matter of not remembering the planet exists, just that no one remembers if it was first or not. If that were the case, the planet would cease to hold a lot of importance in the galaxy, or you could arrange it that way easily enough, and so it would be a simple step forward to make it so that people don't remember it very well. After all, no one remembers small towns out in the boonies typically because they don't do much that's considered important.
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Christine
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First of all, read Asimov's Foundation series if you haven't.

Second, this isn't very difficult. If you set something far enough in the future you can say that just about anything has happened and gloss over the details. You can say humans evolved a second head if you go far enough and I'll suspend disbelief for your story. Seriously, a space faring race forget their planet of origin? Very easy to imagine, especially if something happens to that planet of origin (like a devastating war) to cut off communication. A hundred things could happen, really.

This doesn't require a whole lot of thought or set up. Just don't try to set it in 2250 or something like that...in fact, use a different calendar so the exact timeframe is sketchy. That always helps.


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ParanoidRook
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-Brainwashing
-Passage of Time
-Distance Problems
-Generation ship where only certain few know the truth and keep it from the rest.
-Earth deserted almost/fully.

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mikemunsil
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Earth becomes a myth that people would like to believe in, but cannot. It is not forgotten, it is just not believed in. It is the location that is forgotten.
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wbriggs
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Earth, Baby's Webbing, Iridan, and Tolchok are among the most prominent locations claiming to be the birthplace of humanity. Baby's Webbing has the oldest buildings. Earth claims to have the oldest fossils on the basis of a technique, used only on Earth, called "carbon dating," which is generally held to be unreliable (for reasons never explicitly stated, but it's really just that nobody but Earthlings likes the theory). Iridan points out that it's the only inhabited world with access to sufficient titanium deposits for interstellar travel; if humanity had arisen on those worlds, it would have been unable to leave. This is usually considered to be as silly as the Earth claim. Tolchok is generally believed to be humanity's birthplace, because its tourism board spends the most money convincing people.
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Lord Darkstorm
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Andre Norton did this in some of her books, and she used time and lack of need as her reason.

If you look at planets from a perspective of resources, Earth is already been raped of most of the things humans use to survive. Oil will eventually run out, and metals will become harder and harder to reach. So it would stand to reason, that as humans migrate across the stars, Earth would loose importance. Why do we need Earth now? It's all we got. Once we bridge the gap to other livable worlds that have new resources to use, Earth looses importance. And if you jump a millenium or two in the future...well, I could believe that Earth could be forgotten. We are out towards the edge of the galaxy, so Earth would not be a place someone would want to go unless they had need. Once Earth lacks resources to be a prime world, then over time people wouldn't bother traveling to it at all.


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Spaceman
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Don't forget that Earth is a myth in Battlestar Galactica also.

Unless we slag this planet, there will always be reasons to come here. If not for the nice beaches, for the unique solar eclipses.

As to why your people might forget Earth? After the humans migrated to the stars, there was a technical dark age where spaceflight almost went away. Now that things have resurged, they are still remembering their history.


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Kalvin
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I notice a lot of people are saying that this has been done before. Trust me, there is more to it then that... However, I -may- check out the other books you mentioned. I have not read them, but I may now.
Still, I'm stuck on a bit of a snag now... I wanted my book to be original. Although that only makes up about... er.. 25% of the main plot...

OPINIONS: Has this been used to much, or is it okay to run with? Should I restart, or maybe just tweak the story a bit?


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onepktjoe
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Hi Kalvin, and welcome.

In case you needed more...lol:

quote:
Generation ship where only certain few know the truth and keep it from the rest.

Aurthur C. Clarke's "Songs of Distant Earth" used this one well.

Everything's been done in one way shape or form. Don't sweat it. Write your story before reading these others (IMO, at least) so the others don't bleed through unconsciously. Tell your story with your voice, in a way that makes sense to you. When you're done (or ready to start getting feedback) post 13 over on Fragments and Feedback. You'll get called out on anything that's too familiar, but this way, it'll probably be things that are just dressing for your story. You'll be able to change and adapt them without disturbing the heart of the story too much.


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franc li
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As long as there are teenagers, everything important is at risk of being forgotten. Which is okay. I kind of feel like in order for new things to be known we have to let some old stuff go.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited June 04, 2005).]


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Survivor
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It isn't that it's been done before, everything's been done before. It's just that it has, in fact, been done before, so there are a lot of options that have already been traced out.

I'll go ahead and put in my own suggestion. The early human experiments with FTL navigation were one way only, like it relied on a giant "stargate" built out at one of the Lagrange points or something. You could make communication two way or have it be one way as well. After a number of colonies have been established are are self sufficient but long before any are ready to build their own stargates, political instability on Earth results in a world war and the stargate is blown up.

The colonies undergo their own transitions with the sudden cessation of support and contact from Earth, most survive, but it ends up being millenia before even the most advanced are ready to build their own stargates (or starships that don't depend on a fixed installation). Astronomical data on Sol (and Earth) has been completely unimportant for all that time, and is also drowned in a sea of triva and outright fictions about Earth. Since we would probably aim to colonize stars quite similar to Sol anyway, it would be easy enough for a post-apocalyptic Earth to simply seem like a failed colony to anyone visiting it who didn't already know it was the planet of origin.

If you want Earth to simply stay lost so that none of the colonies ever finds it, then just have the colonies established on worlds with "softer" radiation G5's to G8's rather than G2s (assuming that the colonized planets didn't start out with an ozone layer or anything like that, it would make a lot of sense to colonize softer stars). Additionally, III's and IV's are reasonably abundant and have larger habitable margins than V's (Sol is G2V). So it might even be that only crackpots insist on believing putative original sources that class Sol as a G2V, thus ensuring that nobody even checks Sol to see if it has a habitable planet (interstellar is still too expensive for cranks, and even if it weren't, there are plenty of G2V's to waste time checking out).

By the way, does it even matter that nobody knows about Earth anymore? I mean, centuries after the initial colonization, even if all had gone according to plan, Earth would have become a relative backwater. Humans only live here now because they have nowhere else.


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franc li
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Yes, most ideas have been done before. Is there a secondary idea going with this one? Few stories are just one idea.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited June 04, 2005).]


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Kalvin
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"Yes, most ideas have been done before. Is there a secondary idea going with this one? Few stories are just one idea."

Of course there is another idea. Basically, what it is about, is that Humans have been assisting one race that has fought against another race for ages... What happens is: The race being attacked by the humans goes to (former) earth, hoping to find a weapon to use against the humans (Which is the more powerful of the two races). If they do, then they can destroy the humans. Also, Only the race that has gone to earth knows that it -is-, in fact, earth. The other two only think that the race is attempting to flee.
Also, I haven't quite figured out if they will find a weapon or not.... I figure that if they don't, the readers will feel like they wasted there time. But, if they do, well.... I don't know exactly what I could say is a weapon capable of being used against the human race. Then again,it doesn't have to be a massive weapon. Just a new type of bullet that they hadn't discovered yet or soemthing. Opinions much appreciated.


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Survivor
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Well, if the Earth is no longer inhabited by humans, they'll probably find something that can be (and probably was) used as a weapon.

In my scenario, it could be the original stargate itself they're after. Let's say that, despite certain obvious strategic disadvantages, it has comphensating tactical advantages like near instantaneous travel and the ability to put a payload into normal space much closer to a star or planet (the only way a long running war in space could avoid destroying nearly all habitable planets would be if it were comparitively difficult to get close to any planet and basically impossible to reach a defended planet). Humans are now using the stardrive they learned from the aliens (which explains how they could get back into space at all after losing the stargate at a critical point in their history), and thus don't have the original stargate technology (you can make the humans strong in the war because they're aggressive as pack hunters and breed like rabbits).


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mythopoetic
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Here's another scenario where human's forgot about earth. As of the moment, humans don't have space technology that is advanced enough to travel between the stars. However, a random space event occurs near enough to earth that it is within reach. That event is a worm hole. Very rare. Earth sends out a colony that travels through the hole and colonizes a planet/s on the other side, but then the hole closes up, or changes location or something. This was used in a sci-fi series, well, it only had two books, but still I guess that is still considered a series. I forget who the author was. I should remember, but I don't.

Have you discovered the consequences on the humans of rediscovering Earth? What if at some point they discover the the enemy's true intentions, that the planet the enemy appears to be fleeing to is in fact the human homeworld, and that the enemy hopes to find a weapon there to defeat the human race? This could quite possibly cause a schism in the previously united (or seemingly united) human front. Suppose Earth is forgotten, but there is still some sort of lingering misticism regarding the origin of the human race? Could there be divisions in the human fleets because some deem it unsafe to attack the homeworld? There are tons of scenarios you could develop and play around with. I don't know if this helps at all, but sure sounds interetsing eh?


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bladeofwords
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where did you get the name tolchok?

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Kalvin
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Well... I wasn't gonna ruin the ending... but it's all kind of a plot to get rid of the Human Race who's unwelcome dominince over the other two races has gone on long enough! (A secret pact, perhaps?) Hehehe. Still haven't worked out that part yet, either.
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ParanoidRook
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Reminds of this quote,

"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us."

We call ourselves civilized. People think that going to church and donating to the poor qualifies them as good people, it still doesn't change the fact that millions of people are needlessly dying each year from poverty, disease, or violence.

Hell the self-proclaimed leader of the free world disguises murder and greed with the term freedom or terrorist. The human race makes me sick, I hope an alien species wipes us out before we manage to leave Earth.

- One of my more... outspoken characters in my second book idea, who eventually gets killed by an angry mob who can't handle the cold truth.


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Lord Darkstorm
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ParanoidRook, please leave the political anger to other more appropriate forums. The quesiton was about Earth and how it might be forgotten. While I agree with the quote...for completely diferent reasons, the rest reaks of political bashing which might not be shared by all the people here.

As for the original topic. Have you concidered another race? You say the enemy of humans is looking for earth, but what if there is a 4th alien race that joins against the humans...but knows where the humans originated from?


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Elan
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um... maybe I missed something... but if Earth has been forgotten, what is the point? If no one knows about it, why would anyone be seeking it?

There are a lot of books that have a "forgotten earth" as a subtle background. Frank Herbert's Dune and Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series comes to mind, as do the Dragonriders of Pern. The fact that earth was in the backstory was a non-issue. The characters had built their own unique world(s) and that was enough for the story, to see how they dealt with the here and now.


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Survivor
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quote:
- One of my more... outspoken characters in my second book idea, who eventually gets killed by an angry mob who can't handle the cold truth.

You know, it's interesting that people who think that way like to imagine that they are in constant danger from angry mobs who "can't handle the cold truth." Especially since not very many people would still think that way if they were ever in real danger.

Anyway, back to the subject. Kalvin, have you ever read any of John Ringo's something or other books? Yeah, that was real clear, wasn't it?

The ones about aliens enlisting humans to fight a war for them against some other alien invaders, anyway. The alien civilization doing the asking is dominated politically by one species, and they can foresee that if they let humans join their civilization, it won't take too long for it to be the humans who'll be running the show. So they're trying to get help they really need (cause they're completely incompetent about war), but they're also trying to arrange things to make sure that most of the human race get's killed off in the process.

Of course, I can't think of a better recipie to ensure your own eventual genocide, humans are surprisingly vengeful about little things like having their race brought to the edge of extinction. But it's a mistake that humans themselves have made often enough in the past.

But be at ease, I'm less vengeful than humans


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FROGGERBOB000
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In my idea, you have a few people who left Earth on a generation ship minutes before it was destroyed with two bombs of some kind (disease, chemical, genetical recombination, etc.)
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Meenie
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Try Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series.
Have some major upheaval happen when the people arrive on the new planet that causes them to have to learn to survive on their own. Big loss of technology - having to learn to do things from scratch. Over generations, without any ability to contact or be contacted by earth, it would all become, at best, a legend or myth, if not completely forgotten.
Then over the years they would have developed their own technology. (We humans just seem to love to do that )
Meenie

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benskia
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How about if Earth was written about in some religeous book that the new humans have. Maybe the Third Testament or something.
People wouldn't be quite sure whether it was real or just hocus-pocus.

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Survivor
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The big difficulty is that, under any normal sublight travel scheme, the colonists would a) still be fairly close to Sol, b) would have obvious astronomical references to find Sol (an unavoidable consequence of traveling through normal space in a straight line), and c) would have a working spaceship and a crew adapted to living and working in space.

So you really have to do two things. First, you have to send people a long ways away from Sol, far enough that they can't just look up and see it in the night sky as a prominent star. This basically requires FTL travel. Second, you have to take away the colonists' space capabilities, meaning that none of them can have starships or starship crews. You need your colonists to be hard working sod-busters, with no real practical use for knowledge about the astronomical position of Sol (and thus Earth).

You can't do this plausibly by having accidents happen to all the colonies and all the starships. You need an explanation that eliminates the need for starships entirely as well as the need for the colonies to have technical information on their locations relative to Sol.


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mythopoetic
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You could always have an accidental colonization. I mean, this would sort of be based on a biological concept. When a new island forms in the ocean they it doesn't have any life on it to begin with. Then slowly there's this progression of ecosystems as random processes such a storms and winds and such transfer organisms from a close by island or continent to the new land mass. So maybe man haphazardly sent out ships or something at one point, none of which were intended to colonize anything, but landed (crashlanded?) on suitable planets. It would only take one such beginning, and then man could start out from there. Then you would also have the whole "which planet is the real homeworld" thing.
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franc li
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quote:
Of course there is another idea. Basically, what it is about, is that Humans have been assisting one race that has fought against another race for ages... What happens is: The race being attacked by the humans goes to (former) earth, hoping to find a weapon to use against the humans (Which is the more powerful of the two races). If they do, then they can destroy the humans. Also, Only the race that has gone to earth knows that it -is-, in fact, earth. The other two only think that the race is attempting to flee.
Also, I haven't quite figured out if they will find a weapon or not.... I figure that if they don't, the readers will feel like they wasted there time. But, if they do, well.... I don't know exactly what I could say is a weapon capable of being used against the human race. Then again,it doesn't have to be a massive weapon. Just a new type of bullet that they hadn't discovered yet or soemthing. Opinions much appreciated.


Sounds like the direction Halo 3 might be going in. Where the the covenant are going to look for the Ark. The Ark of the Covenant. Har de Har Har.

A plague of some sort makes sense, but if you want to keep it fresh it should not involve mollusks that turn you into a zombie. Besides, the point of that one is the weapon is as deadly to both sides.


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Survivor
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I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that humans could "accidentally" colonize another planet.

For one thing, I don't even believe in the rather inane notion that this happened with islands and so forth to any meaningful extent. And trying to translate that kind of scenario into interstellar space travel....

Besides, all it takes is for one ship to not crash-land for all the colonies to retain knowledge of Earth. You must get rid of interstellar navigation entirely in one fell swoop, or humans will still know about Earth. It's that simple.

I'm not saying that my initial idea is the only idea. For instance, you could have all the ships controlled by a single agency, "Starfleet". Then a hyper-isolationist government comes into power and recalls the starships and persons with knowledge of astro-cartography, and destroys all colonial records that give explicit information on Earth. Whether because of paranoia that aliens could stumble across one of the colonies and thus learn strategic information about Earth, because they have religious/mystical objections to star travel, or simply because the director of Starfleet didn't want to be the new president's mistress, you can make up whatever reason you like. And if you get the reader to buy something that silly happening (which shouldn't be difficult if the reader is a student of human history), then selling the idea that something very bad happened to wipe out the human population of Earth (or at least reduce it back to the stone age, both in numbers and technology).

Or you could have some kind of experiment with a new stardrive go awry such that hyperspace/warp/other FTL medium travel to and from Sol became fatal. The limited number of starships all jump back to find out why their communications are cut off, and they all die (along with all the astronomers off Earth). Earth undergoes some kind of catastrophic collapse, either because of the results of the accident (like if most people knew at least one close friend living in another system), or from unrelated causes (or the same causes underlying the decision to perform such a risky experiment so close to Earth itself).

I'm not particular how, but you simply have to get rid of the starships and astronomers, or it will be impossible to simply lose the Solar system (unless somebody moves it, you could have the novel stardrive accidentally transport Sol and everything within a lightyear or two somewhere else, wreaking havoc with all the advanced technology in the process).

As for the weapon to defeat humans...it could be that the aliens have learned about France somehow, and they're planning to recover the recipes for French cuisine and introduce it to the humans on the theory that it will destroy their fighting spirit


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NewsBys
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I'm confused, if the humans don't remember Earth, then how do the aliens know where it is?

(Edited because I couldn't even figure out what I wrote. )

[This message has been edited by NewsBys (edited June 10, 2005).]


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Survivor
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Humans may or may not have any real interest in finding Earth at this point in their history. And the aliens might have found radio transmissions from long ago (which have long since ceased) and matched them to humans one way or another.
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