I found out I have that problem. Not for pros but for a couple of writers a little bit above me. One is on another writer's site and even though I've meant this person I dislike her. I don't want to read her stories and critique them and I don't want to read that she may have gotten into the semi-finals twice in a row for WotF contests. I did congratulate her even though I didn't feel like it. I feel like I should be at her stage instead of stuck on the plateau I'm at so it galls me when I see her yahoos.
And I usually don't read Any Yahoos. these days.
I think I may not be the only one with this problem.
posted
I don't know whether it counts as "professional jealousy," but I sometimes get cheesed off when I see something published that I think is unworthy of publication---usually 'cause I think it's badly written, but there's also "son of somebody." "Envy" might be a more appropriate term.
(I get enough "envy" in real life...gross incompetents promoted above me at work...a buddy from grade school turning up in a high position in the government...it's enough to discourage even someone as vain and insensitive as I am.)
posted
My suggestion would be to convert that jealousy into motivation to figure out what you need to do to get off that plateau. Or to just figure out what they're doing that you're not. Let others have their glory. Every success is a success for all of us in this business. One little person gets published out of hundreds and hundreds of submissions? Be glad that there's even a shot for the little guy. But as I said, let their success fuel your determination. Turn it into a positive rather than dwelling on the negative.
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I wanted add that usually I feel okay if not good when someone online I know gets published. I don't mind at all adding my congrats but than this one writer comes along and sometimes I feel more like growling than saying congrats.
I think one reason is that, as I said, she is on the level I think I should be on. Of course it doesn't help that she tears my stories apart on a regular bases with hardly any hint that I did anything right.
But I also remembered there is one pro writer I had a wee bit of problem with envy. The late Isaac Asimov doesn't do that even though I would love to write as many as he did, including mysteries. I even bought the "Gold" book they put out with essays he wrote on writing. It turned out that on the "How to" level they were a disappointment but that's another issue. The point is I could study his writing with no hint of envy.
Anyway, I read the first book of a certain writer and checked out her web site--she had a long list of credits from published short stories. Some like Beneath Ceaseless Skies I had just found and sent two stories to but others like Fantasy and Science Fiction I've been trying for years. She got in them all. I'm sorry to say I felt a stab of envy, even though I have read her second and third book and would recommend them. She is a good writer.
quote: My suggestion would be to convert that jealousy into motivation to figure out what you need to do to get off that plateau. Or to just figure out what they're doing that you're not. Let others have their glory. Every success is a success for all of us in this business. One little person gets published out of hundreds and hundreds of submissions? Be glad that there's even a shot for the little guy. But as I said, let their success fuel your determination. Turn it into a positive rather than dwelling on the negative.
Yeah, makes sense. except I have and do keep working on getting off of the that level. I learn and write and learn and write.
But even though this may sound sarcastic I mean it, doing the rest is easy to say not so easy to do.
quote:...but I sometimes get cheesed off when I see something published that I think is unworthy of publication---usually 'cause I think it's badly written, but there's also "son of somebody."
posted
One thing to always keep in mind, if ever you feel the slippery eel of jealousy curling itself around your heart: when dealing with editors you are dealing with subjectivity, and what may appear to be subjectively good to one person, may not appear to be subjectively good to another. This is why a story that's passed on by one market, may well get picked up by another. Of the three pieces I've sold professionally to date, two of them were bounced by other markets, before finding a home. So if ever any of you begin to feel as if other people have some sort of leg up, in terms of selling stuff you consider to be not that good, consider the fact that this person has probably just managed to hit a certain editor's cookies in a fashion which has nothing to do with perceptions of competency or preferential treatment.
To that end, if you think you're kind of blocked when it comes to having success, consider how much (or little) you've studied the markets you're trying to sell to. Before I won Writers of the Future I read the previous five volumes in an attempt to consciously (and unconsciously) absorb what it was that made a WOTF story a WOTF story. It worked. Analog? I'd bought and read Analog for years, and even though I'd previously gotten dozens of rejections from Dr. Schmidt, once my quality crossed a certain threshold -- because I never quit trying -- I started to sell there.
Which leads me to the third part: being able to sell one place is no guarantee you can sell to all places. Again, editor subjectivity. It's more likely than not that things which sell to one particular market will NEVER sell to many other markets, because each of the editors does try, in my observation, to differentiate from the herd to a certain degree. So here again if you detect someone is "ahead" of you and you can't figure out why, consider where they are selling and where you are trying to sell, and realize that they might not be the same markets. The other person might just habe fined-tuned their work to match a particular editorial taste.
Good luck everyone! I hope everyone is working dilligently on their Q1 pieces for Writers of the Future Vol. 28! The coolest thing about WOTF is that every October 1, there are suddenly 12 empty seats waiting in Hollywood. Someone has to fill those seats. That someone might as well be you!
One thing to always keep in mind, if ever you feel the slippery eel of jealousy curling itself around your heart: when dealing with editors you are dealing with subjectivity, and what may appear to be subjectively good to one person, may not appear to be subjectively good to another. This is why a story that's passed on by one market, may well get picked up by another. Of the three pieces I've sold professionally to date, two of them were bounced by other markets, before finding a home. So if ever any of you begin to feel as if other people have some sort of leg up, in terms of selling stuff you consider to be not that good, consider the fact that this person has probably just managed to hit a certain editor's cookies in a fashion which has nothing to do with perceptions of competency or preferential treatment.
Good advice I think, even though my problem isn't that I think I'm blocked. My nemesis, which is what I have called her even though that is way too strong a word, is just better than me. That is what gets to me I should be doing better by now instead of stuck on the same level.
posted
Bear in mind that there is room for writers of all levels in the current book market.
I was just telling a friend tonight that I have no illusions that I'm creating High Art with what I write. I write stories, and I like to write stories. I write stories that mean something to me, and hopefully to the audience I target them for (YA, girls in particular.) If I can reach even five, ten of them, I've done my job and I can rest well at night.
I know I can write better today than I did three, almost four years ago when I started writing, yet I also know that my writing isn't near the quality of one of my writing idols. But that's okay, because my writing is still good quality, and there's lots of room in the market for good quality writing.
I also have a good sense for what it is I'm not very good at yet, and I try to work on those things as I go. For instance, my nanowrimo project this year is a dual-viewpoint story, because I know that i go so deep into one character that I leave cardboard cutouts for the other characters, for the most part. Two viewpoints will force me to at the very least flesh out two fully realized characters rather than just one.
It's a process, but don't be frustrated by the fact that others appear farther ahead on the road. They may be on a different road than you entirely! I've recently decided that the novel road is a better fit for me than the short story one, and I think I have a better shot at success over here, particularly with writing young (I just don't feel like there's a good market for short fiction for young adults/middle-grade readers, which is terrible because those readers would LOVE a story that doesn't take a week+ commitment for, but alas there just aren't good markets.) Anyway, this road feels better to me, but I really can't measure my success against others on the short story road, or even the adult fiction road. They're on different roads than me, and we're all finding our own paths.
Stay in it, stay upbeat, and remember WOTF is just one path to greatness. (It's a great path, don't get me wrong, but it's only one. There are others...with more slots...)
I understand how there is competition between writers for the few opportunities to be published.
I appreciate that subjectively one may find a published work of questionable quality. For example, I intensely disliked Dennis Kiernan's Iron Tower books as a poorly written not unsubtle plagiary of Tolkien's LOTR -- yet it is oft-reprinted and he published many additional novels. I cared less that he had achieved publication and more that I had wasted my money and time purchasing and reading the books, and permitting them to take up space on my overflowing bookshelves. But, based on how well they sold, someone disagrees with my perspective. And I neither begrudge Mr. Kiernan the sale nor the popularity [ I just wonder at the intellignece and taste of his audience >smile< ].
I guess you can never tell. And I'm still freshly reborn as a fledgling writer after a thirty year hiatus. I naively see all of us as in this together, mutually striving to create something truly wonderful and meaningful in our writing, helping each other along and taking pleasure in possibly contributing to another's success.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
[This message has been edited by History (edited October 19, 2010).]
posted
I'm with you History. There's one very popular writer in particular that I tried to read recently because "I just had to it is so good". It was awful. A badly built world with flat characters and terrible writing. The one redeeming quality it had was that the concept was interesting, but that didn't get me through the book.
I'm baffled how these writers get picked up and how they sell millions of books. It honestly makes me really angry if I think about it too much. Not for me, but for the talented indie authors that I've read lately that can't get a publisher to bite though their writing is good and their ideas amazing.
quote:I'm baffled how these writers get picked up and how they sell millions of books. It honestly makes me really angry if I think about it too much. Not for me, but for the talented indie authors that I've read lately that can't get a publisher to bite though their writing is good and their ideas amazing.
I don't mean to pick on you, but this line of thinking frustrates me, and I see it all the time.
Not everyone likes the same books. You didn't like the book, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been published. Clearly there are a lot of people who loved the book.
There are a lot of books that I don't find interesting. Some of them people rave about, but I can't get through chapter one.
But this actually makes me feel hopeful not angry. There are a lot of different types of novels that appeal to different types of audience. That means there is room for my novels. They certainly won't appeal to everyone, no book does, but hopefully I can find an audience for what I write.
I guarantee that on that glorious day when (cross fingers) I get published, there will be plenty of people who will think my writing is horrid and wonder, "how did this drivel ever get published." And it will happen to you as well. But hopefully there will be enough people who get it and love it.
Now back to the original OP. I firmly believe that anytime you feel jealous of another person, they are making you see something that you dislike in yourself. You need to turn your thoughts inward not outward and figure out what you are doing that is making you unhappy.
You've mentioned several times in this thread that you feel stuck at the same level. Honestly, I think you need to determine why you are stuck and how to move on. And forget your nemesis.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited October 20, 2010).]
quote: posted October 19, 2010 12:20 AM Bear in mind that there is room for writers of all levels in the current book market. I was just telling a friend tonight that I have no illusions that I'm creating High Art with what I write. I write stories, and I like to write stories. I write stories that mean something to me, and hopefully to the audience I target them for (YA, girls in particular.) If I can reach even five, ten of them, I've done my job and I can rest well at night.
Thanks for the words of encouragement, I think there could be others that could use them.
quote: I don't mean to pick on you, but this line of thinking frustrates me, and I see it all the time.
Not everyone likes the same books. You didn't like the book, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been published. Clearly there are a lot of people out there who loved the book.
I think I mostly agree with you. We do have different tastes and different ideas of how a story should be told. However I also think that there are times when a bad writer gets picked up. Or as I have been told by someone else a good writer will get lazy once they have a bunch of books published. I read one, a while back, where I felt the ending was rushed. The rest of the book wasn't bad and up to the writers usual standards but as I said the ending was too fast. Or so I felt.
quote: Now back to the original OP. I firmly believe that anytime you feel jealous of another person, that they are making you see something that you dislike in yourself. You need to turn your thoughts inward not outward and figure out what you are doing that is making you unhappy.
You've mentioned several times in this thread that you feel stuck at the same level. Honestly, I think you need to determine why you are stuck and how to move on. And forget your nemesis.
First; I apologize for repeating myself so much, I do that at times.
Second; I'm not sure I agree with your definition of jealously. You have a point and I can see why you said that but I'm still not sure I agree. But I know what's making me unhappy in regards to writing.
Third; I know why I'm stuck, and I have worked on getting off: read writing books, asked advice of pro writers, had my stories critiqued and tried to incorporate the same advice into my writing, I've worked on Show, on grammar, not including too much side information that doesn't advance the story.
Fourth; I assume you didn't mean forgetting my nemesis literally. If I go back to that site I won't be able to. I think I do have a version of a short story I need to post. She might crit it.
quote:I firmly believe that anytime you feel jealous of another person, that they are making you see something that you dislike in yourself. You need to turn your thoughts inward not outward and figure out what you are doing that is making you unhappy.
LDWriter2 said:
quote:Second; I'm not sure I agree with your definition of jealously. You have a point and I can see why you said that but I'm still not sure I agree. But I know what's making me unhappy in regards to writing.
Third; I know why I'm stuck, and I have worked on getting off: read writing books, asked advice of pro...
LDWriter2, from what is written above, it seems as if you have taken MAP's comment to mean something exclusively about writing. An uncle of mine has often said to me, "the issue isn't the issue", meaning I can get stuck on what I think is the issue and fail to see what the real, much broader issue is that is driving my lessor issue. MAP's comment is broader than writing, it is about determining motivations towards certain feelings.
From what has been said above, it wouldn't surprise me if the underlying issue is a difficulty in handling disappointment. Disappointment that I don't write as well as I should by now, disappointment that I don't seem to be improving as much as I see others improve, disappointment that others have sped along much faster than me towards recognition that I wish I had. So here is my Dr. Phil approach to disappointment, especially for the person as sensitive as me.
1. Realize that now I am an adult, I have to actively and knowingly participate in my own maturity growth (character development), rather than leave it to other people and/or chance. This is a step from seeing a whole lot of small pictures to understanding the big picture better.
2. Recognize that disappointments will come, and learn how to fully recover from disappointment, rather than letting it get to me. A "disappointment recovery process" allows me to deal with a variety of disappointments, and to realize that each can be overcome.
A toolbox of actions have helped walk through this recovery process, including communication with others, apologizing, forgiveness, changing perspective (particularly away from the affects of the disappointing issue on myself), picking up the slack, taking control of what I should, learning patience, seeking outside help etc., etc. This toolbox seems to be growing.
3. Recognize the reality - what I can and cannot control, what I haven't previously controlled but can and should grow into, what I didn't know at the point of disappointment. This is partly what some have been addressing above - the reality of the spec fic market, the reality of improving writing skills, the reality that another person's success in the business usually has very little impact on your potential success.
I wonder, is this last point your issue with your "nemisis", that you are creating a link that simply isn't there, that is not real? Only you can answer that, but, if it is, then the recognition of a little piece of believed unreality can sometimes be all that is needed to change perspective.
posted
Writers are not immune from the tendency to get lazy, or to rest on their "laurels" and not work as hard on their writing as they may once have. Writers are human, too.
The publishing situation may also conspire to cause writers to not invest as much time and effort into later books as they did on the earlier ones, especially if they had a lot more time to tweak and improve the earlier books (while they were trying to sell them), and they don't have as much time, what with promotion efforts and such, to devote to later books.
Publishers may also decide that the cost of paying someone to edit writers who have established followings is not worth it, since the writers' readers will buy their books anyway. So it may not be the writers' faults if their books are not as good any more. Your books may truly only be as good as your editors.
And there may actually be one or two divas or bella donnas out there who refuse to let anyone touch their "golden prose" once they have become best-selling writers--which is actually quite sad.
It behooves us as writers to continue to strive to grow and improve, no matter how good our sales records may look. One of the most award-winning SF/F authors in our day, Connie Willis, still believes that she needs the feedback she gets and gives in her writing group. And I suspect that may be why she continues to be an award-winner.
quote:First; I apologize for repeating myself so much, I do that at times.
Second; I'm not sure I agree with your definition of jealously. You have a point and I can see why you said that but I'm still not sure I agree. But I know what's making me unhappy in regards to writing.
Third; I know why I'm stuck, and I have worked on getting off: read writing books, asked advice of pro writers, had my stories critiqued and tried to incorporate the same advice into my writing, I've worked on Show, on grammar, not including too much side information that doesn't advance the story.
Fourth; I assume you didn't mean forgetting my nemesis literally. If I go back to that site I won't be able to. I think I do have a version of a short story I need to post. She might crit it.
It was JMO. Sorry it wasn't very helpful. And I meant just stop thinking about what your "nemesis" is doing and focus on your writing. Good luck.
LDWriter2, from what is written above, it seems as if you have taken MAP's comment to mean something exclusively about writing. An uncle of mine has often said to me, "the issue isn't the issue", meaning I can get stuck on what I think is the issue and fail to see what the real, much broader issue is that is driving my lessor issue. MAP's comment is broader than writing, it is about determining motivations towards certain feelings.
Actually, I did see that MAP's jealous comments were general not just for writing but since the context was writing I thought I would use that context. But even on a wider level my opinion would be the same. Oh, don't know if I need say this but MAP could be right about feeling jealous, it's not a big deal to me.
As to my jealously it doesn't happen every with everyone. I do rejoice when someone I know gets published. Like the two hatrakers who got in a pervious quarter's wotF contest. I felt some envy but good for them. But for some reason this person hit me wrong, and to a lesser extent so did the writer I referenced. Actually, I think I do know why but as I said they hit me wrong while other beginners don't.
I'm sure it does have a lot to do with my frustration in not improving no matter what I do, especially when I had a taste of being where she and the writer is, about three years ago. I won't let it stop or even slow me down and I will deal with it.
And thanks for the time it took you to type all that out.
quote: Writers are not immune from the tendency to get lazy, or to rest on their "laurels" and not work as hard on their writing as they may once have. Writers are human, too. The publishing situation may also conspire to cause writers to not invest as much time and effort into later books as they did on the earlier ones, especially if they had a lot more time to tweak and improve the earlier books (while they were trying to sell them), and they don't have as much time, what with promotion efforts and such, to devote to later books.
Or Real Life can get in the way. A few years ago, maybe quite a few years ago by now, David Weber broke his arm. On his Newsgroup he mentioned that he had to use Voice Recognition software to write and he had to relearn how to write because writing by hand and writing by voice are so different. I am sure the books he produced during that time were not up to his usual standard even though I didn't notice. Another writer mentioned that a divorce many years ago interfered with his writing and I would assume that what writing he did, during that time, was not his best.
quote: It was JMO. Sorry it wasn't very helpful. And I meant just stop thinking about what your "nemesis" is doing and focus on your writing. Good luck.
Actually, that is good advice. Doing it at times is another matter, however.
quote: If I go back to that site I won't be able to. I think I do have a version of a short story I need to post. She might crit it.
Just to be honest I checked and that story I thought I might post has reached my self imposed limit on new versions.
But I discovered or rediscovered two stories that are done but have been sitting around for months. I need to go over them once before I post them there. I may do that this weekend, with one of them.
posted
Hmmm, I thought more people around here would have this problem. On the comment page of the original blog post I linked to, some writers did admit to this problem
Too bad since there's been some good advice posted, by everyone.
posted
Perhaps we're all just too shy to admit that we're that petty. I will stand up and say I have felt that way before and probably will again. Rivalry can force us to work harder, better, longer so it isn't always a bad thing.
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posted
I can't utterly dismiss my thinking a particular story, or even a particular writer, is bad, no matter what I hear elsewhere. (My opinion on a couple of award-winning stories has not varied since I first read them---though I have not reread either in years.)
Reminds me of...no, that would be discussing politics here, and I've expended my limited quota on the street sign discussion...
Oddly enough, I did just see a writeup earlier today on another writeup about how To Kill a Mockingbird wasn't all it's cracked up to be, that it drowns in ponderous speechifying and is loaded up with cliche characters. I haven't read the book (or seen the movie), or even read the original writeup in question. I do know it's an extraordinarily successful book, selling copies in the millions and beloved by nearly as many.
I must take the advice that if someone found something in it, then it must be of some worth.
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