posted
The second version is stronger because you don't use a "to be" verb in an unnecessary place. My two cents, anyway . Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I believe you have two different tenses -- 'is lying' and 'lies' -- so it depends what you really want to say. If the second sentence is supposed to be equal to the first, then they should be able to be combined: He is in his dorm room and Ari is lying on his bed..." That works. It's all happening at the same time. But: He is in his dorm room and Ari lies on his bed..." Here you have two different actions -- He being somewhere (his room) and Ari in the process of lying down.
At least, that's what I see right off. If I think about it too much, I might change my mind.
(Lie, lay...I'd like to deck the person who thought those up. )
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited June 17, 2004).]
posted
There's a slight ambiguity to the second one which is not in the first one.
"Ari lies on his bed..." could mean: 1. Ari begins to lie on his bed. 2. Ari continues to lie on his bed.
"Ari is lying on his bed..." leaves no ambiguity about the fact that it is a continuation of the state of lying on the bed, rather than the beginning of lying on the bed.
Now, this ambiguity is fairly minor, and the way the sentence finishes tends to imply that it you mean the continuing state rather than the beginning.
However, my preference would be for "is lying," just because it is clearer.
posted
Eric's Point 2 would work as a stand-alone sentence, but the 'he in the room' sentence throws it off. Maybe adding a 'while' would help: He is in his room while Ari lies in his bed...
posted
I'm not sure "while" would help, because it implies some sort of relationship between his being in the room and duration of Ari lying on the bed.
If the context of these sentence is to set the scene, rather than show any action, then I think "He is in his dorm room. Ari is lying on his bed with the sheets draped over her." works best. It's unambigous.
posted
My opinion: it's six of one, half-a-dozen of the other. Either sentence is fine. I don't think there's any real difference. Just go with whatever flows best in context.
When I have a problem like this, read it out loud with the one or two paragraphs that come before it and after it, then just go with whatever feels best.
posted
This isn't a lie/lay problem, cvgurau. MaryRobinette has corectly chosen the verb "to lie" instead of "to lay." The problem is a choice between the simple present tense and present progressive.
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Personally, I find the "is lying on the bed" to be weak. I would invent another verb isntead of the passive linking is, "James, lying on the bed, snored.
Posts: 697 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Allow me to respectfully disagree, Phanto. Every verb in a story can't always be a strong one. Sometimes, an action (if lying on a bed can be called an action) just isn't that important. Some things just need to be passed over and not made "interesting." (Take that! Sarcastic quotation marks!)
What ends up happening is, instead of having some weak verbs, we have a whole bunch of useless verbs, like people snoring or whatever other "strong" verb you choose for no reason. A bunch of extraneous verbs is weaker than "weak" verbs in my opinion.
posted
True. That's why I say to figure out a way to make the strong verb part of the story, so that you solve both problems.
Edit: Not that there can't be any linking verbs. And I also admit that this example is only annoying in its present tense. Had it been in past (He was lying on the bed), I would have glanced over it casually.
[This message has been edited by Phanto (edited June 17, 2004).]
posted
This may not be a story, per se. Although Mary didn't say so, it sounds like it might be a synopsis or a screenplay, both of which would be in present tense.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I think I would go with something a little more. Example:
He is in his dorm room. Ari is on the bed looking at him (or sleeping, or whatever), the sheets draped over her like (and going with the art supplies references I suggested before, have them drape like, hmm, well, brain can't come up with something right now. Meltdown is complete, Captain. Am I sounding, hmm, stuck again. Need sleep. Need sleep.)
quote:Without complaining that I'm writing in present tense. . . .
All right, I won't complain (unless you're really thinking of changing that excellent story into present tense), but I find it hard to pass up the opportunity to point out that this is just one more example of why, in general, present tense is a bad idea.
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Sorry, rick and Survivor, but I'm interested to see how she handles this. Because, I suppose, it was based, I believe, on my suggestion.(hmm. I wonder if there is a proven link between smugness and ibuprofen consumption.) And since she specifically requested that this not turn into a discussion about the pros and cons of present tense, it would only be polite to honor that--mainly because, since she brought it up, she is aware of the problems associated with it and just MIGHT have a good reason for usng it.
Was the smilie over the top? Geez, I must be past my inhibition horizon.
posted
Here's a post from this very board date 08/31/02 from Balthasar which I've printed out and saved that was in response to me asking the very same question. It's helped me out pretty well so, here it is in it's entirety...
quote:The best analysis I’ve found of the verbs to lie and to lay is in Charles Harrington Elster’s VERBAL ADVANTAGE. He notes that distinguishing between these two verbs is a common fault amongst educated adults. Here’s the difference. To lie means to rest, recline, be situated. You lie on a [bed], rest there, recline on it. To lay means to put, place or set. You lay a book on a table; you lay your head on a pillow. Whatever you can put down you can also lay down.
The real tricky part is the tenses of these verbs.
The best tense of lie is lay: “Last night I lay in bed.” The past tense of lay is laid: “I laid the book here yesterday.”
The tense of the [verb] to lay (to put, place, or set) are:
You lay a book down today. You laid [it] down yesterday. You have laid it down anytime in the past.
The tenses of the [verb] to lie (to rest, recline) are:
You lie down when you are tired today. When you were tired yesterday you lay down. When you have been tired in the past you have lain down. (lain is always preceded by have or had)
I hope [that] helps.
By the way, this is all from VERBAL ADVANTAGE, pp. 20-22. I highly recommended this book to everyone.
One last point. The word “laid” as a euphemism for “getting f**ked” isn’t found in the abridged American Heritage Dictionary or the Unabridged Random H0use Dictionary. It’s slan, and doesn’t really fit into this context.
But my question is where this definition came from. Sine laid is the past tense of the verb meaning to put, place, perhaps this raunchy definition is derived from the idea that a guy “put a girl in bed” and had sex with her. Of course---if you really want to push the idea—that would mean that the phrase, “I’m gonna get laid,” is probably grammatically incorrect.
But let me lay this issue aside.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited September 01, 2002).]
It's helped me (I hope it's accurate) and I hope it helps you!
JOHN!
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited June 18, 2004).]
But as has already been noted, this is not about the lie/lay confusion. MR just wanted to know which phrase (both using some form of "to lie") was better.
I can't answer because I have no idea what the context is supposed to be. I think that for most cases I would agree with what EJS has said...but this is already an unusual case.
If this is a radio play, for instance, I think that the more euphonious phrase might win out over the less ambiguous phrase.
But I don't know whether this is a radio play or a synopsis or a present tense story (by the way, if that's what this is, it's been done...and it doesn't add anything).
posted
Goodness. Since my goals with the scene in question will clearly help with the solution, I'll clarify.
Tom, the 'he' in question, has had his memory played with, so there are sections of deja vu. They are very short flashes of which this is one. Based on the discussion I think that "is lying" is my winner, because this fragment of memory happens after a night in bed, so it's a continuation of lying.
I'll post the whole memory in Fragments and Feedback under Revealed-Total Rewrite. If you're curious. If we are going to have the discussion about the appropriate use of present tense then let's do it on the right forum. There's plenty of opportunity to kvetch because not only am I writing sections in present tense, I'm shifting tense within the story.
And yes, it is a leap off of djvdakota's suggestion, though djvdakota did not suggest the tense change. Don't worry Mr. Fisher the whole story is not present tense. Thank you, Eric and Survivor, for noticing that I had actually taken the time to figure out that I wanted "to lie" but it's still a tangly little verb.
posted
I actually meant to go back and edit my last post after going over to Frags and Feed and seeing what you were doing. And then I forgot.
So, for what it's worth, I've always thought that flashbacks of certain sorts (of which these are definitely examples) are one of the few places where present tense is completely appropriate.
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