posted
In many stories I read, characters in a limited thid person POV narrative get to voice their exact thoughts by switching to "I" phrasing. So you'll be reading a paragraph and all of a sudden you see some I's in there. I've seen OSC do this in his stories, as one example. No italics, nothing announcing, "Hey, this isn't a POV switch this si just what the character's thinking!"
I never felt right doing this before. I always put character thoughts in third person POV, sort of rephrased as statements of fact, but then people accused me of not putting in enough character thoughts. Let me give you an example from my F%F story that prompted me to post this. By this point, I've clearly established Jessica as a third person limited POV character:
“I don’t like them,” Jessica said. At least, I don’t know them, which is just as bad. Of course, she would need to get to know them if she hoped to make any friends at school next month.
What I would usually do (before trying this little direct thought experiment) is this:
“I don’t like them,” Jessica said. At least, she didn't know them, which was just as bad. Of course, she would need to get to know them if she hoped to make any friends at school next month.
So, any thoughts? If I use internalized character thoughts to they have to be italicized? (ew ew ew ew) Can I just put them in there without having people think I'm going first person randomly on them? Or should I stick to the way I've always done it? Any thoughts?
posted
I think Christine is trying to seek out a method of doing it without the italics. One thing the italics, or even quotation marks does, is bring attention to the phrase.
What I think we're really looking for here is a very deep penetration into the character to where the thoughts almost feel like the narrator's -- or our own.
I've definitely seen a few great authors use this technique, but only sparingly and only when they've gotten deep into the POV character. The trick here is that if it's obvious that you're getting deep penetration, you've blown it. So...
“I don’t like them,” Jessica said. At least, she didn't know them, which was just as bad. Of course, she would need to get to know them if she hoped to make any friends at school next month.
Would take more than that one simple paragraph to get away with the "I" usage.
"I don't like them," Jessica said. At least, she didn't know them, which was just as bad. No yet, anyway. But I will need to get get to know them, she thought, if I hope to make any friends at all at school next month. So perhaps I should try to like them. I'll give it a shot, she decided. I'm going to need all the friends I can get.
Poor example but it's the best I can do off-hand. If I do not have a very deep penetration into the POV character, no way can I get away with the use of "I" or other such words.
Incidentally, in answer to another thread, I think you can see from the above that contractions are appropriate if used in the proper context and voice.
[This message has been edited by rjzeller (edited August 18, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by rjzeller (edited August 18, 2004).]
quote:“I don’t like them,” Jessica said. At least, I don’t know them, which is just as bad. Of course, she would need to get to know them if she hoped to make any friends at school next month.
I generally don't have a problem following a switch to characters' thoughts like that, but this one threw me.
The change immediately from the char's thoughts back to (yes, I know, technically it's not 'back to') 3rd POV snagged me. If you dropped the "Of course she would..." down to a new para, it would not have that jarring effect on me, and I would have no problem following the switches.
Even a single line of cushioning between the changes, imho, makes it much easier to follow.
posted
I don't understand the aversion to italics for deep thought. I wholly favor them. Much more comprehensible, as this example shows, and easier to follow. The only time they might be a problem is if you have pages of uninterrupted deep thought, but I'm not sure I've run across that.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited August 18, 2004).]
posted
I think both ways work just fine, Christine. It's just a matter of personal preference. Personally, I tend to stick to third-person format for that stuff just like you do, but it certainly doean't bother me when somebody does the "I" thing.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Dec 2003
|
posted
I thinkn part of the confusion lies with what you define as POV. I know we had a thread about this recently but I think people are confused abit about POV in general. I tend to write most of my stories from an omnipotent POV. This allows me to "dip" into any character whenever I like. I try not to let it get too confusing, but I'm getting comments from some readers who tell me I'm staying in POV. They aren't telling me it's confusing, just that I'm not staying in POV.
Personally, I don't know if I like using italics. I find it sometimes draws too much attention to something, however it seems to be a trend these days. I find I don't read much modern lit so I guess when I write, I prefer to use the older style.
Maybe I'm just spouting.
[slinking off the soap-box and quietly receding back into my hole]
posted
My personal thoughts on this matter is that people critiquing your work are wrong, and it's fine to use only thoughts rephrased to match the POV style. It's the way I do it too, and there are plenty of published and respected novels that use this style. If it's what you're comfortable with, use it.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003
|
posted
Y'know Christine, I think it's just this one that's odd, and I think it might be the dismount, so to speak. The "Of course," sounds sort of informal, like we'll stay in her 1st person thought, but then it's third person.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted
Some authors use internal thought without italics. That is true. However, most of those writings are confusing. It is really hard to do it well. That is why italics are good. They avoid confusion. And until you are an established writer, it may be best to do things "by the book"
Posts: 79 | Registered: Jul 2004
|
posted
Thanks for all your thoughts, and I think I've decided to go back to my old and comfortable way of turning internal thoughts into third person internal thoughts. Somehow, it just flows better. Even good authors tend to jolt me out of a story when I see those direct character thoughts, if I'm to be perfectly honest.
One note....it is not "by the books" to use italics for internal character thoughts, it is just one side of one very polar debate in writing circles. I, personally, think italics are from the devil and should go back there, but that's why I tried to steer the conversation away from italics in the first place. Given that that's not going to happen...(that sort of thing)
posted
Little side note that has <i>almost</i> nothing to do with the discussion. When quoting things in research papers and such quote marks are often used when italics are not available (such as when a person is hand writing the paper). In this specific sense they are interchangable. They mean exactly the same thing. I find that most interesting.
posted
One little addition. I happened to start reading "Prentice Alvin" this week. Talk about using "I" in narration!!! Card does this all over the place in this book, and does it with aplomb. The first chapter starts with first person for two paragraphs, dips into third for several pages, then finishes with the same first person again.
And you don't know who it is, necessarily. Yet it works.
But that was a little different, so I passed it by. But then I read chapters two and three and suddenly...BAM (yeah, I like Emeril)...there it is! The term "I" used so deeply into the characters thoughts it almost feels like you're thinking those thoughts yourself. In this case, it's clearly still third person but he does it several times and (IMHO) it works splendidly.
So if you really want to know if you can get away with it, yes, you can. AT least, CArd can. I'm sure you could too. From your posts (Christine), I daresay you are no weak author yourself.
So get the book, read how he handles that POV and narrative style, and I think you'll see pretty clearly how it's done when it's done right.
...as I finish this I realize that you did make reference to OSC using this. Oh well, I'm leaving it here anyway. Others can at least see the book and have a solid example to go from.
posted
To be honest, the way I got used to using "I" in 3rd was...by reading Card's books, looking at how he does it, and copying the same structure with different wording!
What that means is that I looked at how he "jumped" into the "I-Mode", copied that technique several times, and slowly got used to it so I could use it by myself .
Printer-friendly view of this topic
