Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Literary License ?

   
Author Topic: Literary License ?
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
I've been doing The Snowflake Method in preparation for NaNoWriMo. I'll be writing a historical fiction based on a real person.

In coming up with my MC, I've been wondering how much liberty I can have in fudging certain 'facts'. My main VP character is Malchus, one of the officers who arrested Jesus at Gethsemane. Everything I've read says that he was a servant of the High Priest. I'm really wanting to make him a Roman Officer, and it kind of seemed important to the way I'm wanting to go with it.

I'm not particularly thinking about a 'Christian' market as I write this. I'm using the bible more as inspiration than as written-in-stone. I guess I'm just looking for other opinions. Thanks in advance for your help!


Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
Look, I think the right answer is, do what thou wilt, when it comes to writing most stories, but in this instance why not just pick a Roman name and go with that instead?

Especially if it is clear from even a little research that Malchus was not who you are going to say he was.

If I was writing the story, I would have trouble misrepresenting someone, even if they had been dead about 2000 years (and particularly if I could be easily caught out )

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited October 18, 2005).]


Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elan
Member
Member # 2442

 - posted      Profile for Elan           Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like you need to decide if you are writing historical fiction, or alternate fiction. Historical fiction would stay as true to the history as possible, weaving fictional characters and fictional conversations into the overlay of historical fact. I would suggest that if you plan to appeal to a historical fiction market, you should keep your characters as close to historical fact as possible. As a reader, I enjoy historical fiction, but I would be upset to find a book had taken the low road that hollywood often does to fudge the storyline and characters from history. Somehow, I hold literature to a higher standard.
Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leaf II
Member
Member # 2924

 - posted      Profile for Leaf II   Email Leaf II         Edit/Delete Post 
I say... do what you want. It's your story, and if you do your job good enough, perhaps we won't be saying... one moment there. He wasn't ROMAN!!!


I didn't even know who that guy was.
I think, personally you're allowed to change a few things.
But thats just me....

- leaf


Posts: 147 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yanos
Member
Member # 1831

 - posted      Profile for yanos   Email yanos         Edit/Delete Post 
If you need a Roman officer, picking the High Priest's servant seems a strange way to go. Is there a reason for not picking a real Roman officer? Without knowing more about your rationale it would be hard to decide. You also have to decide what you want this story's market to be.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
The story of Malchus is what originally intrigued me. It may just be growing into something else. I may just pick a true Roman officer anyway, and keep with the idea I've come up with. I just thought I'd check other people's impressions.
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Beth
Member
Member # 2192

 - posted      Profile for Beth   Email Beth         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't read a lot of historical fiction, but it's my understanding that those who *do* take it very seriously, and will hurl the book across the room if you take liberties. If he's an actual person, you can't just randomly change known facts in historical fiction. You could make up a new person, or you could extrapolate from the known record - but you can't just change the guy's nationality. In historical fiction.


Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
I'd second Beth and yanos on that one: if you want a Roman officer, pick one. Using someone who was clearly named in another capacity as a Roman officer would seem weird to me.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kickle
Member
Member # 1934

 - posted      Profile for Kickle   Email Kickle         Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Beth and Silver. Also I suspect that an editor with an interest in historical fiction of this time period would notice the change and assume you merely hadn't reasearched your story. Make the character as correct as you can or change your genre.
Posts: 397 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pantros
Member
Member # 3237

 - posted      Profile for pantros   Email pantros         Edit/Delete Post 
Generally, you don't want to fudge facts that are already established. While some people will view biblical history as myth, those same people will never read historical fiction based on the bible so you don't care about them. However, even if you were dealing with myth, you wouldn't want to stray from the established classical version.

If you want to fictionalize just parts, why not just fictionalize the whole thing. You get a lot more leeway if you write a story inspired by than if you claim it as historical.

A good story about an officer in an imperialistic army who arrests a prophet of the forgotten but true god, well, that sounds like a good fantasy story and the astute readers would pick up on the parallels.


Posts: 370 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
If you're doing the servant of the high priest who got his ear put back after Peter cut it off, then you can play fast and loose where there are no facts, but where there are, you must not contradict them.

Why? Because this guy isn't your character that you created.

If you want to contradict known "facts" (and putting that word in quotes doesn't change the fact that the thing you're planning to change is one of the most factual bits of information available on this character), then make up a character in a similar but made up story, as Pantros suggests.

Now, I think that you could easily get away with having Malchus be heavily Romanized, Judea was a Roman province at the time and Roman influences were everywhere. Even in places that you wouldn't really expect. But just because he had friends/contacts with Roman officers and imitated them in some ways, that doesn't make him a member of the Roman chain of command or anything.

I think, even putting the historical facts aside, making this guy an actual officer in the Roman military would have consequences for the story that you can't control readily. Making him a bit Roman in his thinking and training, perhaps even making him a Roman citizen (not entirely unlikely, nor something to be taken for granted), wouldn't be going too far.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
I agree, Survivor. I think, though, that I would need to learn a lot more about the Jewish culture of that time. I feel a bit more comfortable with the Roman aspect. I was thinking to just stick with the idea I had and tell Malchus's story another time when I can do it justice.
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
Ack! You never mentioned that you wouldn't feel comfortable handling the historical milieu in which the entire story is set...why do people not mention these things?

Anyway, learning more about the setting is a definite must. Worthwhile in it's own right, even. Not like, say, the Warhammer 40K milieu that I've crammed in preparation for NaNoWriMo.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
franc li
Member
Member # 3850

 - posted      Profile for franc li   Email franc li         Edit/Delete Post 
I guess you could set it in a totally different milieau, if it is just the story of Malchus himself that you find interesting.

Also, if this is something you're excited about writing for Nano, you could just write the darn thing and fix the problems later. The question is how big of a problem you are looking at. I personally don't know. And I took 4 years of Latin in high school and work at a synagogue.

I guess there are enough people who think Jesus was fictitious that you could play to that market. Though I can't imagine why.

What do you find compelling about his story and why does he need to be Roman?

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited October 21, 2005).]


Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
Survivor--Sorry! The honest answer is, I just decided to do NaNo a couple of weeks ago and am going for the *jump in and untangle later* method. Doing Snowflake is helping me focus a lot. My biggest problem right now is: What did the burgeoning Christians call themselves? I know that they were Jewish, and the term "Christian" didn't begin until years after Christ's death, so what did they call themselves (and what did the Gentiles call them) at that time?


Franc--Malchus was the original inspiration, but the story that is coming to life through Snowflake is now about a Roman and his struggle to convert. For NaNo, I'm really not too concerned about doing "well", so I am planning the gap-filling route you suggest. I'm completely content to throw it all out come December. I have to remain that way, so I'll have no excuse for giving up before I'm done. *grin* Truly, though, I'm only looking to learn from this year's nano.

If you're interested in looking over (or critiquing) any of my preparation process, I'm keeping all my NaNo stuff on my blog. This Path.

Hmm...maybe I should actively solicit crits for my SnowFlake. Can we ask for feedback in F & F on pre-planning stuff? I'm one of those people who sit down and write to see where it goes, and this is actually my first attempt at outlining. It makes me nervous.

[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited October 21, 2005).]


Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
franc li
Member
Member # 3850

 - posted      Profile for franc li   Email franc li         Edit/Delete Post 
There was the one Centurion who went to Jesus for a healing in his household. Other than that the majority of the early "Christians" were Jews, who considered themselves the sect of the true Messiah. When Peter has the dream about eating giraffe and so forth, that is when non-Jews begin to be accepted into the fellowship of (as they begin to be called in the Epistles) saints.

I imagine the other Jews at the time probably regarded the Saints similar to how other sects of Christianity view Jehovah's Witnesses. "Oh, Jesus returned in 1914? I would have thought more stuff would have changed as a result. But you're telling me things have gotten worse instead of better." Now it happens to be the case that I agree with the Saints (disciples of Jesus) and not with the Jehovah's Witnesses. But I am hoping you might see it as a useful parallel.

I hope I'm safe assuming you are not Jehovah's Witness, since I will hand to them that they tend to be cracking scriptorians. If you (or anyone else reading this) are, I apologize for any offense. I mean, you should find the parallel to the early Saints accurate.


Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
Nope, not me. Didn't the mormons also believe Jesus came back here in the US? Well, personally I attend a Unity church. I understand your point. I just wondered if there was a word they and the other Jews used to distinguish themselves from the other.
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
Administrator
Member # 59

 - posted      Profile for Kathleen Dalton Woodbury   Email Kathleen Dalton Woodbury         Edit/Delete Post 
They called themselves "saints" and they meant someone who is trying to be good.

quote:
Can we ask for feedback in F & F on pre-planning stuff?

Sure.


Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Kathleen. I'll need to get my Step 4 typed up, and see if I can't get it posted soon. *Nervous hand wringing* I don't think I've posted my stuff there yet...
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Isaiah13
Member
Member # 2283

 - posted      Profile for Isaiah13           Edit/Delete Post 
Ahavah: Your original post kind of reminded me of a book called "The Tribune", by Patrick Larkin. It's about a roman officer who gets stationed in Nazareth during Jesus' life. Might be worth checking out.

Posts: 270 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ahavah
Member
Member # 2599

 - posted      Profile for Ahavah   Email Ahavah         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the tip, Isaiah. My library doesn't seem to have it, but I'll keep a lookout for it.
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2