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Author Topic: here we go
TheoPhileo
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Hi all, I'm new here. I guess I'll just post the beginning of a short story I recently began. I'm a new writer, but starting on a novel series, and am writing this partially to develop my writing skills, and to explore the same world of my novel a bit.

---
Jameen a’Riman surveyed the dim room, hard-faced yet smiling inwardly at his work. Now past his middle years, he had a graying beard and a square nose, eyes sharpened and hands hardened from battle. He had been in the Regal Guard more than half his life, loyally protecting the Districts of Hallan from threats both inside and out. Today’s arrest was a large step in preserving that unity.
On the dirt floor before him, bound by rope, sat four men and a woman. No. Four boys and a girl. They couldn’t be more than twenty years old, any of them. They were plain-clothed now, the boys all in breeches and shirts of various colors, tied in the front with several strings of cloth. The girl wore a loose-fitting white dress, ankle length, also with a small tie at the neck. In each of their rooms, though, Jameen’s guards had found more incriminating garments: white robes with a three-triangle emblem on the chest; the training cloth worn by Tyros of the Elenoi. Jameen scoffed aloud at the thought. Training to serve Arinon, he thought. Arinon! Old fairy tales from ages long past. Ignorant children.


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Survivor
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Interesting, how you prep the Tyros of the Elenoi with such evocatively sympathetic names and symbolism. Don't exactly know where you're going with that, but in the context of another discussion on names, those do well, as do the other names you introduce.

There is a bit of a POV problem, you pull the novice trick of descibing your POV character's external appearance by way of introduction. I don't know if there is a logical reason that an experienced author would ever pull a trick like that, but my recommendation is to knock it off. If Jameen wants to compare and contrast the appearance of a few of the soldiers under his command to the appearance of the novices they've arrested, then so be it. Just don't have him obsess over his own appearance, which he probably doesn't have much occasion to see in your milieu.

Also, a girl of not more than twenty years old would probably be considered a woman in most pre-industrial societies, particularly in the kind you seem to portray here. Boys might not yet be considered men as such by the same age, but they certainly wouldn't be called children. Youths or juvenilles would be a better word (well, juvenilles has been pretty well ruined, but youths would still work).


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Jerome Vall
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Let's go through this:

<<Jameen a’Riman surveyed the dim room, hard-faced yet smiling inwardly at his work.>>

There's a slight problem of psychic distance with this passage. You start off very objective—Jameen a'Riman—and then move very quickly to something subjective—surveying the dim room, smiling inwardly at his work.

<<Now past his middle years, he had a graying beard and a square nose, eyes sharpened and hands hardened from battle.>>

This is fine, though graying beard tells us that he’s not young.

<<He had been in the Regal Guard more than half his life, loyally protecting the Districts of Hallan from threats both inside and out.>>

“Threats both inside and out” is too much of a cliché for me.

<<Today’s arrest was a large step in preserving that unity.>>

“Large step in preserving...” is too much of a cliché for me.

Let’s stop here. The real problem with this paragraph is a lack of a consistent point of view or psychic distance. You move from telling us objective things about this man—such as his full name, what he looks like, a bit about his past—to telling us very subjective things about him—what he’s doing from his perspective, what he’s feeling. Even the arrest is out of place. A basic principle of composition is the unity of the paragraph. Figure out what you want to say here and say it.


<<On the dirt floor before him, bound by rope, sat four men and a woman. No. Four boys and a girl.>>

Sorry, this is just bad. It’s a cliché insofar as it’s often used in regular speech to hone in on the truth. If you’re writing from a 3rd person objective point of view, the narrator would never write this. And if you’re writing from a 3rd person limited point of view, your hero would know if he’s arrested adults or children.

<<They couldn’t be more than twenty years old, any of them.>>

This is already made clear by the use of “boys and girls.”

<<They were plain-clothed now, the boys all in breeches and shirts of various colors, tied in the front with several strings of cloth.>>

For the sake of imagery, you should clarify if each boy is wearing a different colored shirt, of if each boy is wearing a multi-colored shirt. If it is the latter, tell us the colors. Vividness is one of the hallmarks of good writing.

<<The girl wore a loose-fitting white dress, ankle length, also with a small tie at the neck.>>

Fine as is.

<<In each of their rooms, though, Jameen’s guards had found more incriminating garments: white robes with a three-triangle emblem on the chest; the training cloth worn by Tyros of the Elenoi.>>

I sadly admit that I’m a huge ZELDA player (even at 30!) and a three-triangle emblem is the icon of that game.

<<Jameen scoffed aloud at the thought. Training to serve Arinon, he thought. Arinon! Old fairy tales from ages long past. Ignorant children.>>

Once again, you’ve ruptured the viewpoint.


The biggest problem is one of technique. I’m not sure if you’d call this an inconsistent viewpoint or not. I’d call it a lack of maintaining psychic distance. Sometimes your far away, and other times you’re up close. This is fine so long as the transitions between the two are smooth.


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Jerome Vall
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Survivor posted his as I was writing mine. I think he's correct in that the people who've been arrested are more like juvenilles than children. But I'm not so sure I'd agree with him on the point of telling us what the hero looks like. However, Survivor is correct insofar as the way you have it written, you're violating your viewpoint. If you were to writing in a straight third-person objective viewpoint, then you could tell us what he looks like.
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TheoPhileo
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thanks for the feedback. I wonder if some of my discrepancies were edited in. My original first paragraph was as follows:

---

Jameen a’Riman surveyed the room, smiling openly at his work. High Commander Hallan will be pleased. Twenty-three seekers of Arinon arrested, six wearing the three-triangle emblem, marking them as Tyros of the Way. Jameen scoffed aloud at the thought. Training to serve Arinon. Arinon! Old fairy tales from ages long past. Ignorant fools...

---

I see now some better ways I can introduce the details through other means (perhaps Jameen scratches his "graying beard"), but I was also trying to make sure the reader did sympathize with the prisoners a bit, as well as with Jameen. Does this first version seem to solve some of the difficulties? I started with fairly deep penetration into Jameen's thoughts.


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Lord Darkstorm
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Stick with the original, the revision would convince me not to keep reading. People want a story, not a history lesson of a world and people that do not exist. The original has a better hold on POV and doesn't bore the reader to death with details they don't care about.

If you want the reader to care or feel sympathy for the prisoners you can achieve that through other means. Have a guard slapping one around, or something in that vain. It depends on what you want to have percieved, but actions are more enjoyable than being told "the prisoners were abused".

Keep at it.
LDS


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Jules
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Just one comment in addition to other people's: I liked a little of the detail about the prisoners, but you need to be careful how you give it. Be careful not to use ways of thinking about them that your POV character would not use. He would be unlikely to think of details of how they had been dressed were they not dressed that way while he was thinking of it, so maybe just mention that they had been waring the robes without describing them in detail.

Also 'plain-clothed' strikes me as an anachronism. I would say the phrase is 20th century in origin, and as such should be avoided in a piece with the atmosphere yours seems to be looking for.


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Phanto
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The second line, IMO, should be:
XXXX would be pleased

The PoV isn't deep enough for direct thought transfer, at least this far into the narrative.


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Christine
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My gut reaction before I read anyone else's stuff...

Intriguing, did catch my interest.

But (yes, there is a but) ...

I didn't think you should describe the main character's appearance. It seemed out of place and he probably wouldn't be thinking about his own appearance, particularly not at this time.

Also, putting actual thoughts in italics is no longer necessary. It will be assumed, if you just state it with no quotes, italics, or anything else, that this is in the pov character's head.

I would also consider starting a new paragraph with "Training to serve..." I think this is very important information, the real thrust of your intro, and should therefore be given its own paragraph to show its importance.

Now I'm going to read everyone else's comments...

Whew, I usually don't have much to add at this point, but some of the feedback you've received needs some disputing/clarifying/additions.

First of all, completely scrap that second attempt at writing this. It was pure stinky stuff. (please insert the word I really meant in lieu of "stinky stuff".)

Second, that line by line blow by blow account of your story was harsh, and I disagreed with some of it. Every time the word "cliche" is used I become wary. There is some truth to the idea that you can't just use everyone else's coined phrases to write your story, but especially in a short story some of the things you use serve the purpose of rapidly provoking the desired imagery. Keep them.

It is true that you need to get a better handle on your point of view. I don't know about "psychic distance" I've never heard that term used, but I think I understand the point. And here's the thing, you can dip more deeply and less deeply into a pov character's head in between paragraphs. Just make sure to stay consistent within a paragraph and never LOSE the poitn of view. For example, if in the first pragraph you want to step back and let the readers know who this guy is and what's going on, that's great. But some things almost never come out in a pov character's head, like what they look like and what the unconsciouss expressions on their face are. (hard faced is almost always an observed look) He might have his years of service in the back of his mind, particularly at such a crutial moment, so introducing us to the character in that way is fine.

I didn't have a problem at all with the "four men and a oman. No. Four boys and a girl." I found it to be believvable and it conveyed lots of information to me. For one thing, it conveyed that they were on the cusp of adulthood, which is true. It also conveyed to me that the main character felt a little sorrow at having to make this arrest, that perhaps these people simply did not understand the error of their ways. It really set me up for the last line in your intro.

I can see why you don't need to specify their age after the previous line, though. It is redundant.

I forgot about Zelda...I used to love that game! Welll, NOW that's going to be what I see. Wouldn't have been before. Anyway, use whatever symbols you want, they all get repeated between fantasy epics anyway.

Never use "he thought" in third person limited. This is a trick, to stay inside the viewpoint characters head and yet not switch to first person. Think of it this way, this really helped me...What you want to do is convey ATTITUDE rather than thoughts or emotions. You're really close, but you're currently messing it up with the "he thought" and the italics.

And that's about as long a post as I ever make.


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Survivor
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quote:
Jameen a’Riman surveyed the room, smiling openly at his work. High Commander Hallan will be pleased. Twenty-three seekers of Arinon arrested, six wearing the three-triangle emblem, marking them as Tyros of the Way. Jameen scoffed aloud at the thought. Training to serve Arinon. Arinon! Old fairy tales from ages long past. Ignorant fools...

This has a significant advantage over the first post, it is all in a single, coherent POV.

But that doesn't offset the fact that it isn't very good as POV. You tell us that Jameen surveyed the room, then tell us almost nothing about what he sees, unless (in this version) there are twenty three arrested seekers of Arinon present in the room. We are told that they are arrested and six are (or were) wearing the Tri-Tri emblem. Jameen apparently is not very observent--he doesn't notice whether they are facing him, or facing the wall (I'm just assuming that there is at least one wall), standing, kneeling, tied up or knocked unconscious...you get the idea. This paragraph is in consistent third person limited omniscient, but we get almost no information out of it.

I wouldn't call it stinky stuff, but it certainly doesn't interest the reader as much as the first version you posted.

This guy is a sergeant or captain of some kind, he didn't get to be one by being unobservant. So tell us what he observes.


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