posted
I need to know if this beginning works. It's fantasy, and I'm planning to turn it into a novelette.
The boy stood outside the village bakery, waiting for the chef to take the apple pie out of the oven and set it by the window to cool. He'd heard it was being prepared for the mayor's birthday, who was turning fifty-four today, not that the boy cared as he didn't know whether he was thirteen or fourteen. Nobody had ever given him a name either.
That wasn't true. In some hamlets he traveled through, the denizens would chase him out with long sticks after he did what he had to survive. They called him Thief.
And he was about to do what he had to as soon as that pie was sitting by the window. His stomach grumbled. Oh let that pie come out soon; he hadn't had anything sweet in
posted
I'm just an unpublished beginner myself, so take this with a grain of salt. The first line initially turned me off, because of the common image of a pie being stolen from a window. However, after that I felt very drawn in by the voice and situation. I like the lively feel it has, the boy seems interesting, and this is a special pie that could get him into quite a mess. I would read more. Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Very nice opening. At first, I had a mental note to say something about the unnamed POV character but that disappeared as you quickly explained hisn ame. I felt a connection to the character and while there is really very little information about the story itself we have a compelling character and some conflict -- quite enough to keep me reading for more.
I have some wording grumbles I wanted to go over:
"He'd heard it was being prepared for the mayor's birthday, who "
The who here is refering to the mayor's birthday, not the mayor, and so it sounds weird and is grammatically incorrect.
"was turning fifty-four today, not that the boy cared as he didn't know whether he was thirteen or fourteen."
I'm not sure what the word for this is -- maybe comma splice -- but the information after the comma here is extraneous to the original sentence and, IMHO, should be in a different sentence. It sounds like a run on, even if it isn't. (It may be, I just don't feel confident enough about that diagnosis to say so for sure.)
"In some hamlets he traveled through, the denizens would chase him out with long sticks after he did what he had to survive. "
I think this should read "had to do to survive." It sounds weird and I have an incling that it is technically wrong the way it is, but most of my grammar knowledge is gut-level and so I can't say for sure. I think it may be as simple as a missing verb. The way it is being used, survive isn't a verb.
"And he was about to do what he had to as"
once again...a to do
Hope this helps. Really, an example of a very good opening.
posted
1. I liked the sound overall, but there are some issues of mechanics that distracted me from what you were saying.
* The construction of your second sentence feels a little convoluted. Too many clauses strung together with commas, and missing one comma (after "boy cared"). I'd rework that sentence. And while we're on the topic of commas, I'd throw one after "Oh" in the last sentence.
* "The mayor's birthday, who was turning 54 today" sounds misplaced to me, as if it were the mayor's birthday who was turning 54. Maybe that's just me, though -- somebody else chime in. I'd prefer "for the mayor's fifty-fourth birthday" anyway.
* "did what he had to survive" just felt off. Technically, it should read "did what he had to do to survive"; I'm all for eliding extra words, but in this case it felt awkward.
2. In the last sentence, "Oh[,] let that pie come out soon; he hadn't had..." uses two different tenses. I'd either italicize the "Oh, let that" (i.e., make it a literal present-tense thought in story time) or change it to past tense (i.e., make it part of the narrator's voice rather than Thief's voice).
3. I don't believe that any 13-yo boy has ever not gotten a name from anybody. The first thing that Adam and Eve did was name the animals -- we're naming creatures. Every time somebody uses a construction like this, it immediately makes me disbelieve them.
4. This next bit isn't necessarily a criticism, depending on how your story proceeds. So far the tension in the story is pretty simple: hungry boy wants to steal a pie. That's not a long-term hook, but clearly the pie is relevant, so you've set an expectation that there will be mischief when Thief steals the pie, and that will lead to the rest of the story; or maybe that he takes the pie and shares it with a friend, who gets them on their journey, or something. I hope that's the way you're going -- if he steals the pie, eats it, and then battles evil robot monkeys, I'll feel cheated.
5. Now that I think about it, "chasing them with long sticks" sounds a little weird, too. Why just long sticks? Why not pitchforks and whale mandibles? But maybe I'm just being a nitpicker now.
posted
Did people really set pies on windowsills to cool, except in comics? Why would they do that? They can cool just as well on a kitchen table. If you're in a southerly clime where the kitchen might get too hot, you're also in an area with flies.
Otherwise, I like the opening. I'd rather have a different thing to steal here, though, or different circumstances.
posted
I liked the general tone. It feels old fashion which is usually a must in fantasy. Some details: Second sentence: I had the same trouble as everyone else with mayor's birthday. The transition from that to the "exposition" bit that tells you the kid's age is awkward and not believable. The kid doesn't care about someone else's birthday because he doesn't know his own. It's kind of convoluted. Imagine he did care, because he himself didn't know what age he was, or because he was proud of being all grown up at fourteen or fifteen. Whatever suits your imagination. A fourteen year old boy doesn't make the mistake of stealing the mayor's birthday cake. In fact, a streat smart 9 year old wouldn't do it. If you need him to steal that cake better make him much hungrier than he appeared to be in that fragment. "Denizen" is practically a synonim of citizen, and sounds almost the same. "Citizen" would be simpler. Although the narrator is not the boy and can, thankfully, talk better than an uneducated teenager your POV character should still influence the narrator's voice. "Citizen" you'll get away with, "denizen" might just be too much. Then again if you're using and omnipotent narratore just ignore everything I just said. Nobody doesn't have a name. In the gorgeous chinese film "Hero" the protagonist doesn't have a name: his name is No Name. That' what people call him. If they call your kid Thief, then that's his name, that would be the name he thought of as himself (traumatizing, so great fiction. I'd imagine there'd be more than a few thiefs around so they'd have to be "Corner Thief", "Beggar Thief", "Wall Street Thief" (lol). Maybe you could give him a name that means "Thief" in another language.
Sorry for gutting it out. I'm a stickler for realism. I liked the tone, liked the flow and I want to know what happens next. Do you need readers? If so, please send it in
[This message has been edited by Sara Genge (edited June 07, 2006).]
posted
Unfortunately, it's not up for readers yet. When it is, I'll post it up here and see if people are still interested. Thanks for the crits so far.
Posts: 329 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
IMO, the boy would call himself something. Names are how we relate to the world. Granted, you are working toward a character with near pathological detachment from his surroundings, but he would still call himself something if he maintains any kind of internal dialogue at all. Adolescents, in particular, are fascinated with names and ages. This character would have the freedom to change his name at will, his age as well, and I'd find him more believable if he called himself something different every day than I would if he called himself nothing at all.
The paradox of the boy mentioning the mayor's age in his thoughts, but not caring about ages, is too much. The character completely collapsed for me there. He is too detached, and too far removed from my experience.
If your story's plot was intriguing enough, I'd keep reading despite having no way to sympathize with the MC, but you've started in a common scene. Maybe explain why this boy risks so much, by stealing this particular pie. That might reveal the part of his character that distinguishes him from other abandoned children living off what food they can steal.
Your writing style is good, and I had no problems other than the same, easily corrected, punctuation and phrasing problems others have already pointed out. I did have a small thought pop into my head while reading your first sentence, in that it's irregular for someone to refer to the person running a bakery as a "chef." My brain wanted to find the word "baker" there.
posted
I keep rethinking my reaction to the nameless thief (because I bought into it easily) and I guess there are aspects of it that don't make sense. I mean if he truly grew up with no family or friends then he might not have a name -- but then how did he survive? I'm afraid a 3, 4, or 5-year-old won't survive on his own unless he's Bean. He has to have a past somewhere, someone who kept him from dying of exposure, and that person would have given him a name, even if it was, "Boy" or "Orphan."
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
The name thing crossed my mind too, and I was going to attempt to explain that, but it required a painful infodump that I didn't want to mess with. Not at the beginning anyhow. The story starts with him stealing the pie (although details on that will be polished) and I give his history as it goes along. And it is very important that he has no name--it later adds a frightening aspect to his background; I think anyways.
Posts: 329 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: Nobody had ever given him a name either. That wasn't true. In some hamlets he traveled through, the denizens would chase him out with long sticks after he did what he had to survive. They called him Thief.
Maybe you could add, "but he always thought of himself as" Robot Monkey Boy!
At least that way I have a reference for him and I know he has some sense of self.
quote: He'd heard it was being prepared for the mayor's birthday, who was turning fifty-four today
I agree with the prior comments on this line. This seems too awkward. The rhythem is off. I don't think you need the "'s birthday."
"He'd heard it was being prepared for the mayor, who was turning fifty-four today."
Other than those easily remedied issues, it's a nice start.
posted
Like I said earlier, I was willing to go with it until I thought about it too ahrd. (Particularly after reading the other posts.) I am qutie curious as to your reasoning (and I'm glad that you have some...probably this is an example of something I would have trusted more if I'd seen it in print in a credible source) but I think it is probably very important to get to that background very soon.
I'd be interested in reading this when you get to that point.
posted
My only real stumbling block was, as others have mentioned, "after he did what he had to survive" which would be more correct if it were "did what he had to do to survive" but all those extra little words break up the sentence as well, and might be equally jarring to the reader. Personally I would suggest using a different word/phrase than "had to do." Maybe somethingl ike "did was was necesarry to survive" would flow better, not having to put seven short 2-3 letter words in a row, which makes the sentence bumpy to read.
I liked the idea about a by who didn't even have a name, personally. As for the comment:
quote:IMO, the boy would call himself something. Names are how we relate to the world.
I disagree. If a person had never been named by another, and had little to no dealinging with any other people, I find it plausible that he had never bothered to name himself. I, for one, don't think of myself by my name. Very few people think of themselves in the 3rd person "John is hungry today. Maybe John will go to the store." It's more like "I'm hungry, think I'll go to the store today." If this boy has no social interaction with others except being chased for stealing food, I find it perfectly plausible that he's never bothered to name himself. Or, in other words, his "name" is just "I."
One comment though, if the boy continues to go namless for the whole story, you might want to come up with some way to refer to him, since this story isn't in first person and you can't use "I" as the boy would in his mental processes. Perhaps you could refer to him early on as "He," capitolized to infer a proper name in this context, so the reader won't be bogged down with "the boy" for the whole story?
I would like to continue the conversation regarding naming characters in a more general discussion, and was wondering if you would mind me starting a topic in the Open Discussions forum, referring to this post? I'm interested in exploring the concept of unnamed characters in more detail, but I don't want to get your fragment all off course. Would you mind?
posted
That post about refering to oneself as "I" gave me an idea: would this story work in first person? That would help you somewhat around the name problem... you wouln't even have to say that the boy doesn't have a name until you're well on your way and a bit of exposition won't hurt that much.
Posts: 507 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
It wouldn't work in first; Thief isn't the only POV I'm working with, and the only way I know how to show multiple first person POV is letter writing or what Applegate did in the Animorphs series. I think if I used either here, the story would flop.
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posted
hey there --- this story idea of yours, particularly the first paragraph, has been sticking itself scimitar-like in my headspace for quite some time now....and I'd just thought to say...
1st of all, super for starting off with action...here we have a boy, about to steal an important foodstuff. Good, good. However...where's the fantasy-fiction immersion? This action could be very well taking place in a village somewhere today, say in Europe, or even in an earlier time period, say 17th century...see what I mean? What indication is there here that it's a fanasy story?
So I suggest...play around with the terms...as in, have the pie be likw a 'boysenberrie tartpie', or made from some other kind of berry/fruit filling not in existence on 'regular earth'. And, instead of a window...how about something like a canvas flap, or something made of some woven material, play around with architectural styles...maybe the cooks are members of some semi-nomadic tribe, and live in large tents like gypsies, or Tibetans, and other wise put up tapestries/fabric hangings wherever they roost, in doorways/windows/archways, what have you...this all goes under the heading of 'world-building'.
And the boy...is he a raggamuffin? A homeless waif? A runaway? He's known as Thief to his knavery friends mayhaps, but what does everyone else call him? They have to give him *some* kind a name..howsabout 'No Name'?
The waif No Name, hungry beyond belief, eked himself up painfully to the cookhouses' windowflap, beyond which the head cook inside was busy with her baking for the Darendon festivities that evening. He was known as Thief to his friends, however, and his reputation as a skillful scarfer was put to the test, particularly now, as he knew here the cooks would soon be placing out their great pastry creations to cool in the afternoon draughts...tinkljuice scones, treeworst, and yes even byzynberry tartpie, his uncontested favorite. Even now he could catch wiffs of it on the air, putting grumblings in his gut loud enough to threaten to give himself away.
Just as a suggested text, and I dont think even this treatment is close to where I would want to go with this...and, beyind that, is it even kosher for me to take things this far, to do as much as to suggest alternative text-renderings of a particular chosen passage? If I'm reading a work on fantasy, I want to encounter fantasy-styled stuffums, just like if I was reading SF...well, I tend to shy away from SF givings that treat space fleets as a 'Navy', and to mention political bodies as 'counties' or 'townships', or where peeps have predictable, ho-hum WASP names like Smith or Jones...you get the idea, perhaps tho too this is just my personal biases coming into play here. Even just a change from 'apple pie' to 'weedsugar tart', and 'window' to 'archhole', 'bolthole'...hmm...'airflap'? Is that too unreasonable? Mayhaps...of course, you could just ignore all this claptrap...but i DID enjoy it that you started with tension.
posted
Personally, I get distracted when _everything's_ different from real life.
I mean, why even make it a pie? Why not make it a weifentarte? Perhaps because "-tarte" makes it sound like a pastry, which isn't fantastic at all. So why not have him steal a byzynberrie weifenhast?
The answer, for me, is that it starts to feel like I'm falling into undefined gibberish. Those things that deviate from reality should do so for a reason -- a reason that I can grasp as I'm reading -- or my mind has nothing to latch on to.
I like the use of apple pie because by ignoring the pie, I can focus on Thief -- and Thief is inherently _much_ more interesting than a byzynberrie weifenhast.
Keep in mind that fantasy isn't really medieval in any sense of the word. When you finally accept that it makes the entier genre easier to swallow. It's really real life but more backwards so that magic seems more grand.
I like apple pie. It's easy for me to get my mind around and it's simplicity and lack of trying to hard makes me read past it without a thought -- which is what you want that particular object to do in this story.
posted
Hmm...I feel moved to apologize for my post then...perhaps we read fantasy for different reasons, or fiction in general for that matter...I just enjoy cultural immersion...what would serve to be just seamless un-distraction to you, would seem sort of boring for me...I mean, here we have a boy, an apple pie, a window, the start of a story I can only see the first 13 lines of, and I want to be grabbed,,,and so I read that and I immediately think, well, this can happen in the modern day, where's the fantasy? And yes, I do see your point about avoiding unnecessary, distracting 'world vernacular', when done to excess it's VERY annoying. If I would have read, 'The fowlwaifen stood eagerly beside the brockface to await his beloved boyz'nfugen tartgroffel', I would have put it down in shaking-head confusion. Perhaps I was simply suggesting a compromise? Either that or else I suppose I'm wildly eccentric...if I happen to pick up an SF story, that starts out describing a humble, cardboard-cutout 'maintenance man', wearing 'denim coveralls', using a 'socket wrench' to fix an 'air conditioner' on a spaceship belonging to some 'Navy', I tend to set it aside....but that's just me--if the SF author *does* do that, then I want this maintenance man to do something *very* intriguing with this wrench/air conditioner setup, told in a grabbing style...
Posts: 103 | Registered: Jun 2006
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