posted
“What’s going on out there, Eris?” Soren was at one of the east windows again, staring at the ocean’s horizon no doubt, cup in hand. Same window, same greeting as four days ago. Eris looked over at the decanter. “Twenty-one years,” Soren said, “and we never even knew it was there. How the hell did that happen.” “You didn’t call me up here to drink, Soren. What is it?” Soren looked at him for about three-seconds before turning away again. “What’ve you learned from the Auran bitches Rand’s men brought in, about this woman?” “They don’t kno-” “Are they dead yet, Eris.” “No. They don’t know anything else. It’s obvious they never-”
Novel is called 'Caithenen'.
Soren & Eris are children of humans who crash-landed on this planet, came to Caithenen (essentially two sub-tropical islands joined to a small sub-polar continent by an ancient aqueduct that carries a river from the continent to the two otherwise arid islands - God, what a long sentence)
They've just discovered Aurus, an inhabited weed-system revolving with infinite slowness in the lee of Caithenen (kind of a sargasso sea taken to extreme), and the Aurans have done something terrible to them - again.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited June 01, 2007).]
quote: “What’s going on out there, Eris?”[Who is asking?] Soren[Who is Soren?] was at one of the east windows[Of what?] again[Was he before? Why didn't you mention it?], staring at the ocean’s horizon[Does the ocean have it's own horizon, or did you mean "ocean met the horizon"?]no doubt, cup in hand. Same window, same greeting as four days ago.[He's greeting someone at the window?] Eris looked over at the decanter. “Twenty-one years,” Soren said, “and we never even knew it was there.[What was there? Both of these people know, so it shouldn't be a secret.] How the hell did that happen[?]” [How did what happen?] “You didn’t call me up here to drink, Soren. What is it?”[This sentence doesn't relate well to the last.] Soren looked at him for about three-seconds before turning away again. “What’ve you learned from the Auran bitches[I had to read this three time before I finally understood this. Suggest inserting the word "that".] Rand’s[<--Who?] men brought in,[Is this a separate question, or did you mean "women", because earlier, in the same sentence, you said "bitches"?] about this woman?” “They don’t kno-” “Are they dead yet, Eris.” “No. They don’t know anything else. It’s obvious they never-”[These last three quotes demonstrate the problem with starting with thick dialogue. I'm left more confused than informed.]
The last line wasn't necessary to put in. It doesn't CHANGE anything.
Whose PoV is this?
Where are they?
Why should I read on?
Why don't you tell us (through them) that the Aurans are weed-dwellers?
What terrible thing have the Aurans done to them, again? That might be the hook, which is non-existent here.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited May 31, 2007).]
posted
I was thoroughly confused by the first 2 lines. The reason? Couldn't tell speaker from speaker. First, soren says to eris, what's going on out there. Then Eris is making comments about Soren, including that Soren is looking out at the horizon. But Soren was *just* asking Eris what is going on out there, can't he tell? He's LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW!!
Do you see why I was confused? I think dialogue tags would help, and perhaps a better lead-in dialogue line for Soren. Something less confusing w/the visual of Soren looking out the window.
You allude to 21 years and we never knew...but then that subject seems to be dropped. I see from your synopsis, that the 21 years must be that they didn't realize the Auran country existed for the 21 years that they were on this planet, but isn't there a way to do this w/o so much mystery that would be just as interesting? It feels like you're deliberately trying to drag out telling me what your two MCs already know. Now, I know the mantra "show, don't tell" - and one way to show is via dialogue that characters have, but isn't there a way to do that without it being so unclear? I know, I know, can't just info-dump on the reader, it's a balancing act. I wish I had more tangible suggestions. Maybe starting the story at a slightly different place? Soren waiting anxiously for Eris?
I think I also detected some slight POV waffling, is that possible? Have you decided which character you're going to sit in the head of, or are you planning to write omni? Because if you have a stronger POV, you can climb in that dude's head and make some "thought to himself" or "Eris was surprised to see Soren drinking this early in the day, but then again, this had been one hellofa day."
That "what've you learned..." sentence needs to be redone. Two sentences is often what I suggest, but it could just be a reordering would suffice. Something like "What've you learned about this women from those Auran bitches Rand's men brought in?"
You also mention 4 days ago in the third line. Is this meaningful? It's the only mention of it - if Eris is noting similarities to an earlier conversation, I'm surprised he's done noticing them already. If you're going to be in his head - how about some "Here we go again, Soren's going to grill me about the damn Auran's. What do I know? I only just learned about them 4 days ago, just like Soren!"
posted
“What’s going on out there, Eris?” Soren said as Eris walked into the room. A quick look around told Eris it was just the two of them up here tonight. Soren was staring at the eastern horizon, cup in hand, as if he were longing for the ability to see across three hundred miles of ocean. Eris looked over at the decanter. The responsive concern Soren had exhibited a week and a half ago, when they’d discovered the existence of Aurus, was degrading into obsession. “Twenty-one years,” Soren said, “and we never even knew it was there - how the hell did that happen.” “You didn’t call me up here to drink, Soren. What did you want?”
Inarticulate - thanks for pointing out some glaring goof-ups, I made the mistake of re-writing the 1st chapter endlessly (1st thing I ever tried writing, & lost track, somehow, of the fact that no one else but me knows what's going on in the story. Beyond that, though, give me a chance, man, I can't relate every bit of info about the situation in a few sentences. The next few paragraphs DO make things a lot clearer.
KayTi - thanks for not cutting me to bleeding shreds. Again, I got too close to it, & couldn't see it. Amazing. I hate being dumb like that. Maybe I need to leave the book alone for a year for a fresh approach.
[This message has been edited by fuddy (edited June 01, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by fuddy (edited June 01, 2007).]
InarticulateBabbler tends to be very picky about everyone's writing, but keep in mind that he's just showing you things that confuse him and things that he would like to see in the first thirteen. Sure, thank him for what advice was useful to you, but please note that complaining back at the critquer doesn't do any good. In fact, it'll probably earn you a lecture to go read "Why the problem with the 1st 13 isn't that it's too short" http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/002662.html and "Just Tell Me" http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/002716.html . *snicker* I guess I just saved someone else from having to do that. Anyway, since this is a novel, you can get away with a slower start, but clarity of information is still important. We don't know what's going on like you do, and we need enough information that we don't get lost.
Second, everyone gets too close to their work to see the mistakes they make, so don't feel bad that you did, too. That's why we have readers, critiquers, and editors go over our stories before they're published!
Okay, on to your new first 13 lines.
It's much better, but the sentence "The responsive concern...was degrading into obsession" still reads a bit awkwardly. Try reading your lines out loud and listen to how they sound.
quote:“Twenty-one years,” Soren said, “and we never even knew it was there - how the hell did that happen.”
They never knew what was where? I can guess, but I'd prefer that you just tell me. That way, I won't be wrong.
quote: InarticulateBabbler tends to be very picky about everyone's writing...
I'm trying to help.
If people think I'm being a prick for being honest (sometimes brutally so), just wait until they deal with someone who isn't trying to help, but making judgments on whether they are going to give a first timer a shot. Then they'll think I'm all right. Maybe not -- lol --maybe I am just a prick.<shrug> Even pricks have their benefits...
posted
I think there's a fine line between being overly picky and being a critical reader. Pointing out what you see wrong as a reader isn't necessarily the problem - the problem is as a writer, how much of everyone's comments do you listen to? If everyone says "Point A would make more sense if you had your character do this particular action", then it's likely that it'll be an issue in the future. If one or a small few people take issue with small niggling issues like specific word choice, then take what you know of the reader and apply it.
Knowing that IB is picky is alright. It means he's reading critically and analysing every single word. It doesn't mean you have to follow every one of his recommendations. It does me his opinion might be more valuable than the person who offers naught but empty validation and praise.
Not everything that a critiquer raises in feedback on fragments is meant to be answered in THAT fragment. Often we will mention things that confused us, or questions that this fragment raises. Sometimes it's outright suggestions to address certain things in the fragment, but other times, it's more general than that. It's always up to the writer to figure out what to do with the feedback.
And this rewrite looks a lot better! I think you nailed it when you said that you were writing from an expectation that people had the whole backstory in mind. Once you switched out of that, things were a lot clearer. I agreed with the other poster who identified a clunky sentence.
Good luck with this piece, I think it's got some nifty potential.
posted
I think it is safe to say that few, if any, of us are established professional writers. Any of the advice given here should be considered carefully. For that matter, professional advice should be considered carefully. Writing should be a careful business, and if you aren't rejecting a lot of the advice - you probably aren't thinking it through as much as you should.
One thing I like about InarticulateBabbler is that he shows no reticence in giving his straight, honest reactions to things. Myself, I am a bit reluctant. One of the first pieces of advice you should consider before reading any of my reviews is that I probably didn't hit it hard enough. It doesn't do the writer any favors to hold back. (Not condoning disrespect here.) If you paid me to review your work, I would tell you outright that you were going to be cheated. (I think I'm improving, though.)
There is no fear of that with IB, and even though I disagree with him sometimes, there are (at least) two things that he does. First, he makes me look at my writing and think about it in greater detail. I have gratefully taken some of his advice, and thoughtfully discarded some of it -- but I have *unquestionably* scrutinized my work more because of him, and for that, I thank him.
Second, he makes me aware of a particular kind of reader. If IB reacts a particular way, then there are certainly others who will react that way. But you can't please everyone, and you have to decide whether your style is more geared toward the IB types or other types.
In the meantime, it's a healthy exchange to have IB picking at the things he doesn't like, and to have others disagree with him. In fact, it lets the newbies tacitly know, "This isn't a free ride - you're going to have to learn to think and judge these things for yourself."
One of the things I disagree with IB about is how much mystery a reader should/can tolerate in the first 13, and it shows pretty starkly in this thread with his wanting to know more about the characters than was immediately offered by fuddy. I didn't have near the problem he did with the first 13 above. But I think the conversation about a tolerable level of mystery and how mystery does or does not work with different approaches is an excellent conversation for aspiring writers to have, and I know it wouldn't be at the front of my mind if IB (and a few others) hadn't been beating us up about it. I hope to get a dedicated thread made for it once I formulate some thoughts on the subject.
So - if I sounded preachy at all with the above, it's probably because I am, in fact, a sanctimonious boob. So you can wisely establish your MO (ignore mfreivald, or don't) accordingly.
posted
Eris entered the upper hall at Midtower, and glanced around the room. Soren was here alone tonight, standing at a window and staring at the eastern horizon as if he were trying to see across three hundred miles of ocean. Eris looked over at the nearly empty decanter. “What have they done out there, Eris?” Soren said, not bothering to turn around. “In a month, we‘ll know. I Hope. Was there something specific you wanted to talk to me about?” Soren looked at him for about three seconds. “Apart from the probability that we’ll all be dead by the end of the year because of this?” He had trouble articulating ‘probability’. It was a week and a half since they’d learned of the existence
Thanks for all this input. I welcome all advice happily, and value it, at least after the initial cataclysmicly stupifying devastation. Go ahead, slap me around, it might be the only way to wake me up. (It's okay, my wife is offended by my sense of humor, too) All kidding aside, though, really, I value everyones insight. IB, I think I see where you're coming from now. Extreme ircumspection, I can use it.
I started writing this book almost a year ago. I'd never written anything before, other than a few letters. After sixty pages, I let it sit for a few months, now I'm trying to rework it, and I'm thinking maybe I should start the whole thing fresh. It feels like a colossal backlash in my head right now. Patching garbage.
[This message has been edited by fuddy (edited June 02, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by fuddy (edited June 02, 2007).]
The good thing about this last iteration is that there is a clear structure to it. You introduced two characters and a problem (though vague). They are reacting to this problem, and you informed us of the dire consequences of the problem. It is also apparent that you are gearing up to explain how they discovered the problem.
It's still a bit murky. I can take a little mystery up front as long as you give me some detail which hooks me about whatever it is they just learned about. I would suggest giving some kind of detail to Soren's observation that prompts him to say, "What have they done out there, Eris?" Otherwise, it leaves me a bit detached from him not knowing what he was reacting to. (In fact, my first read of this latest iteration gave me the impression that Soren was concerned about the actions of some subset of people from whom Eris just came.)
A few nits of my own that are not critical to worry about now:
The as if statement came off as saying as if there were and ocean he was trying to see across. I actually wasn't sure there was a real ocean there at first.
I think "setting timers" for reactions should generally be avoided. Setting timers kind of jolts me out of a work and makes me want to look at a watch or count One Mississippi, Two Mississippi…. I would recommend writing something that gives the impression of a hesitation with a few beats.
Here is my attempt to rewrite it (with some back story of my own) to remedy my issues above:
quote: Eris entered the upper hall at Midtower, and glanced around the room. Soren was here alone tonight, standing at a window and staring eastward across the ocean as if he were trying to see beyond the horizon. Black smoke darkened the sky. “What have they done out there, Eris?” Soren said, not bothering to turn around. Eris looked over at the nearly empty decanter. “In a month, we‘ll know. I Hope. Was there something specific you wanted to talk to me about?” Soren looked at him and seemed to study his face. “Apart from the probability that we’ll all be dead by the end of the year because of this?” He had trouble articulating ‘probability’. It was a week and a half since they’d learned of the existence
This was just a quick jab at it, but hopefully it gives you something more to chew on.
quote: Eris entered the upper hall at Midtower, and glanced [around<--or across?] the room. Soren was here alone tonight, standing at a window and staring at the eastern horizon as if he were trying to see across three hundred miles of ocean.[IMHO, you could simplify this a bit, and keep the main points: Soren stood alone at the window and stared out across the ocean.] [Eris looked over at the nearly empty decanter.<--Why? What decanter? “What have they[Who?] done out there, Eris?” Soren said, not bothering to turn around. “In a month, we‘ll know. [I Hope.<--Either: "I hope we'll know within the month", or eliminate either "I hope" or "we'll know". AND - Why don't they know now, but will in a month?] Was there something specific you wanted to talk to me about?” Soren looked at him for about three seconds. “Apart from the probability that we’ll all be dead by the end of the year because of this[What? If the both know what "this" is, you should just say it.] is?” He had trouble articulating ‘probability’. It was a week and a half since they’d learned of the existence
Okay. First off: This is much better than the first and second version. What's going on is much clearer.
However, IF you're telling it from Eris's PoV, we shouldn't know what Soren is thinking or seeing, unless Eris can see it.
Second, there was some good things from your summary that you could've included in your first 13 that would have sold me more.
Example: When Eris entered the upper hall at Midtower, he found Soren standing alone and staring out of the window. The stench of low tide wafted through the window. It smelled like those filthy weed-dwellers, the Aurans. "What have they done, Eris?" Soren said. He still gazed out at the horizon.
This is all I have really learned from your lines.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 02, 2007).]
posted
Yeah. Good catch, IB. I missed it because he slipped it in at the end. Shifting POV in the middle of a scene is generally a bad idea - in the same paragraph is worse. It's a rare author that can do it well. (An example of a masterful job of shifting POV can be found in the book Beloved, by Toni Morrison. It's a Nobel Peace Prize winner. But be forwarned - it's a bizarre book.)
I don't need to be told why you mention the decanter. I deduced that Soren emptied it recently. It's a subtle way of conveying to me that he is stressing and that he is a drinker.
I'm also expecting an explanation soon telling me who is being asked about and why they will know what they did in a month's time. But I don't have to have it in the first 13. Soon, but I'm patient for now, and I don't need it to be hooked.
That being said, IB's example does come off as stronger. (It's similar to what I did above, but related to your summary info.)
As for explaining what "this" is, I don't have to know what it is this second, but, again, I expect to know very shortly. If you are trying to create suspense about what "this" is, I think it is probably ill advised. I need to be hooked first. Then you can start building suspense about something. If you are postponing it for other reasons, like to get it into a stronger context, that's okay. (The economy of words and meaning more or less force you to deal with it more thoroughly or effectively in a way that cannot be done in the first 13.)
Basically, if you have good reason to postpone the clarification, I'm okay with it. (Assuming you have me hooked in some way.) But if you don't, you can probably make it stronger by articulating "this" right up front.
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I think dialogue tags would help, and perhaps a better lead-in dialogue line for Soren. Something less confusing w/the visual of Soren looking out the window.
