The financial aspect is not minor; but if we don't buy anything we want to with our tax return I may be able to scrape enough cash together. The other, more major issue is this: I have a daughter who will just be one year old and unweaned. Is his class worth being away from her for a whole week? Now, I realize that none of you can make my decision for me, but any answers to the following questions would be appreciated:

If you have gone, how have you grown as a writer as a result?

Is there a lot of benefit to the class that cannot be gotten from reading OSC's books?

I have a lot of problems with my plots. I am pretty good at world-building, and I can usually find my characters' "voices" but I don't know what to do with them. Will this class help me with that? Reading books about plot has not.

How often are Literary Boot Camps held? He mentions another one in 2006; does he do them annually? Or is this the first time in several years he has offered one?

OSC has always been one of my very favorite authors, and I respect him enormously. I am not a Mormon, but I respect his belief. I would absolutely love to meet him in person and hopefully learn what he can teach me. But because I have family responsibilities I don't want to just be led by my desires in this instance.

Thanks in advance for any comments!

I assume, BTW, that you are talking about the entire boot camp and not just the literary class, because there is a difference.

I have grown as a writer because of the experience. There is no question. I think of my life as a writer in "pre-boot camp" and "post-boot camp" terms.

Now, for the last few years these boot camps have been an annual event. This means that there will probably be an opportunity for you next year, after your daughter is weaned. On the other hand, sometimes you have to make your life suit your own needs. There is always a reason NOt go go...money, etc.

A full year of breast feeding? Doesn't she bite by then?

I thought it was worth it. Now, the two day series of lectures was tremendously interesting, but they follow his book fairly closely. He does interject his little pearls throughout, though. And you'll not be bored for an instant.

The truly cool aspect was the bootcamp portion. Spending three days doing nothing but reading and critiquing (and being critiqued) was eye-opening. Truly. It will really give you practice, and seeing OSC's critiques of everyone's stories is like seeing the eighth wonder.

And that's one of the reasons I write. I don't have kids yet but I'm nearly to that point. (I've been married a year and a half, I'm nearly 28, I'm running out of reasons to put it offf...) When that happens, the last thing I want to do is have to live vicariously through my children. It is one of the worst mistakes I think parents make. I know it probably sounds a bit convoluted, but I think one of the best things I can do for my kids is to have competence, confidence, and fulfillment. Then I need only encourage them to be the best they can be without needing them to make up for the holes in my life.

There are always breast pumps. And it is just a week. And after a year of being tied to the baby by the nipple you probably deserve a week off.

As far as the weaning thing goes, I think I'm going to have to wean her soon anyway. My hubbie and I are going on a trip to Vegas in April, and I was originally planning on taking her along, but the more I think about it, the more I realise that it would be really nice to have some marriage time sans baby. So I may end up taking the plunge and weaning her by mid-April anyway, at which point going in June for five days won't be such a big deal. My mom is fully willing to watch her, which also helps.

Dear autumn's husband:

As a participant in the 2003 boot camp I can tell you from firsthand knowledge that this is a one of kind experience that cannot compare to anything else. If you have read Card's novels, you know he is a competent and highly regarded writer. What you may not know is that he is at least as good a teacher as he is a writer. He has a way of putting a class at ease and he keeps them hanging on his every word through humor and an exceptional lecture style.

If autumn has read Card's books on writing, she has tasted the tip of the iceberg. This is a sample of what she should expect at boot camp. For the first two days, he does say a lot of what he says in his books, but in a live action format that cannot be captured in a book. He demonstrated two separate thousand idea sessions in those two days. Participating in such an exercise is dstinctly different from reading about it.

But then he takes questions. All questions. Any questions. We learned about publishing, marketing, plays, writing humor, writing non-fiction, etc.

The first day he set us an interesting homework assignment: Go out onto campus and come up with seven story ideas. Three should come from doing research at a library, three should come from walking around with a buddy and observing the world, and one should come with an interview. (That last one hit me in the gut; I'm terrible at talking to strangers.) But the exercise was sound. Ideas are everywhere, and from just the first two days of class he proved it by making me come up with seven of them!

Then there is a day of frantic writing wherein autumn will turn one of those ideas into a short story. After that, the boot camp begins. Three full days of reading, critiquing, and listening to Card tell you his take on everyone's story, including autumn's. This is when I learned the most, as he has eighteen specific examples to draw on for good and for bad. My own story was picked to pieces but I learned two things from him: First, that I needed to use attitude rather than words of emotion to really gain sympathy for my character (if you want to know more detail, start another thread). Second, that suicides are not good ideas in fiction. I would go on to tell you what minor lessons I learned and what I learned from everyone else's story, but it fills a rather large notebook and I don't have time to transcribe it.

It is a bit pricy. When I went, my husband and I were not quite married, he was making half as much as he is now, and I wasn't making much either. We had a wedding to pay for (in part, my parents were helping) and a lot of other soon-to-be-newlywed financial concerns. Even with all that, I never once regretted a penny I spent on the trip.

By the way, the cheapest room option is to stay in the dorms with other bootcampers. I highly recommend it, both for the price and for the social aspect.

I hope this helps you and your wife to make an educated decision. Obviously, only you two can decide what is right for your family, but hopefully I have helped you understand what boot camp is really like so you can make an educated decision.

Regards,

As a husband, if my wife went to the extent of posting a thread like this, I would take her 'request' very seriously. I would also feel that she had put me on the spot in front of her friends and that would piss me off. So, I would have to balance my desire to support my wife in her endeavors with my natural male reaction to feeling that I was being manipulated. (I don't do manipulation very well. I tend to get angry and break things.)

I won't say what path I think you should take. That is your decision. For me it would be an easy one; I would say 'Yes!', but, then, my wife is good with a knife. 5'2" of pure female fighting fury. I live in fear of her. *grin* Or so she thinks, anyway.

You have a wife who has taken care of your child for a year. She deserves a break, even if that means that you will be on your own for a week. Hmmm. Babies don't drink beer, so you'll have it all to yourself. You won't have to always be putting the toilet seat down; the child poops herself, why should she care?. Autmnmuse won't be there to criticize you for cleaning the baby's bottom under the shower. You don't have to make the bed. You can belch and your infant will giggle. The list goes on.

This has possibilities!

franc li--it's not possible to transmit talent, but Card is an excellent teacher, and he has a lot of skills as well as talent. It's incredible to watch him pick apart stories and think of twenty other ways you could have done something (and they seem so obvious after he's pointed them out).

autumnmuse and husband--In terms of cost, think of this course as a full term college course. In terms of hours spent with the instructor, it actually comes out to more than that. In terms of quality, it's WAY better.

Grahame says thank you for all the posts.

I apologised to him for putting him on the spot, by the way. I honestly hadn't thought about it that way, mikemunsil, but you were right; I was being manipulative. So I feel an apology is in order to you all as well, for using you to influence my husband.

Were you manipulative? So was I. :0

I tried to lay a guilt trip on you both, to get you talking more openly. I figured that if you (autumnmuse) had to come to this site to air this issue, then you two were talking at each other, rather than to each other.

So, I in turn apologize for being manipulative. But I am glad you're going. LOL

Also -- I won't out her here, but a fellow '03 camper was breastfeeding during class breaks...and she still says it was worth it.

Second point to whoever said this, and I apologize but you hit on a very sore subject with me:

quote:

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Babies under 2 can still fly on laps, right?

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... no offense to those w/ children, but you'll probably be offended anyway -- stop reading here if you're easily offended. Yes, they can fly on laps, but more importantly, can the adult have a child on their lap during the whole flight? It is my experience (having just flown from London to Sydney, a very long flight indeed, with dozens of children onboard) that most adults can't. And young children want to move about anyway -- they can't sit still for long periods and you can't expect them to do so... so where can they go? Inevitably, they run up and down the aisles, possibly screaming during this time, usually a frazzled parent following trying to catch them.

A second thing is: if food is served, you certainly won't be able to pull your tray table down and eat with a child on your lap. You'll need to put the child in a seat to do this. A seat, I hasten to add, that you did not pay for -- and that's not fair -- especially when some parents displace other passengers in the process, asking if they can move elsewhere. Yes, I saw this happen twice -- once one the way to Oz, and then again on the way back. Very inconsiderate.

However, don't despair, most airlines have the "special" seats at the front of seating section that is usually reserved for parents with small ones -- you can sort of tie up you kid to the wall (or tie up a bassinet of some sort anyway and put your kid in it). Be sure to ask for those seats whenever you fly with little ones.

Lastly, putting a child on your lap while flying can be a real hardship on those sitting next to you. Just ask me, who got a child's chocolately finger in my eye several years ago when flying -- it wouldn't have happened if the kid had his own seat. I finally had enough, complained loud enough to a flight attendant and got moved to another seat. How is that fair? And if anyone says to me or is thinking about saying it's just a child, don't be a jerk -- I'm not talking about the child, I'm talking about the parent. Please keep that in mind as you read on.

I'm not saying people shouldn't fly with their children. I'm just asking people to be considerate when doing so. If your child needs a seat, and all of them really do, cough up the cash for it. If you can't afford it, and the special parents' seats are already booked... well... consider how you are making the other passengers feel before putting a child on your lap. Apologies only go so far. We paid money for our flight too, we deserve a little space of our own, don't we?. Children may be special bundles of joy, but they aren't necessarily to the person sitting next to you. But do know, it's not the child we're angry with. It's the parent. We don't blame the kid, we blame the parent.

quote:

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What if something happend, like a crash or an emergency landing, even the loss of cabin pressure or heavy turbulence? You have a seat belt, an air tank and a floatation device. The child has to share this with you. What if there was a fire and the only way to survive was with that oxygen mask?

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These are good questions. The hard answer is, your child is probably not going to make it. But neither are you.

Still, let's not hold any illusions about those oxygen masks. A fire in a plane will likely spread throughout the entire plane in a matter of minutes, depending on the situation of course. An oxygen mask will be the least of your concerns by this time. Really, the masks are only for cabin depressurizations, not for protection against smoke inhalation. In a fire, the last thing you want is pure, or mostly pure, oxygen pouring out from those masks, which will make the fire grow quicker and hotter -- much worse.

If a plane does go worst-case, your chances of survival are not-so-astoundingly low. Even if you do survive a crash, you'll have to do some rather unthinkable things to ensure your self-preservation. Those that survive the initial impact, are conscious, and uninjured enough to move themselves, will have to "fight" their way out; climbing over other people, dead or alive, to get to the nearest exit or whatever. The true accounts of aircrash survivors are pretty grim. It's every person for themselves... Worse still, if you feel obligated to help a loved one before and while saving yourself, you'll probably get trampled by someone who has no such obligations.

Flotation devices. Mostly useless. Yeah, you'll float. But depending on where you crash, and more importantly the temperature of the water, you probably won't last very long. Hypothermia will occur in about 15 minutes in cold sea water. 30 minutes max if you're in really good shape and can somehow keep yourself marginally warmer by swimming or treading water. And a 15 minute response time to any crash site, land or water, is uncommon. You're only chance to survive in this situation is to find a large enough piece of wreckage to float on and hope the ambient air temperature is above 40 degrees F before the coast guard finds the crash site.

An emergency landing on ground offers the best chance of survival. If the landing jolt is severe enough, you'll be unable to hold on to your child should they be in your lap at this time. Really, and very grimly, your young baby will be far more injured than they would otherwise be if they were strapped into a seat, preferably a carseat device.

But airlines don't care about any of this. As stated above, the odds of any of this stuff happening are very low. And if it does happen, they are banking on your death. It's cheaper to pay your families some sum of money than it is to design and retrofit a safer flying environment. But how safe can you make a plane anyway? Probably a lot safer, but the force of a high speed, high mass impact, and the ensuing fires, would likely negate any improvements. Except for one improvement, perhaps:

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Is anyone else obsessively checking the Bootcamp page to see when they post the registration links?

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No. Utah is too far away from London. If it were in N.C., or even anywhere on the east coast of the US, I'd put much consideration into applying for a seat. As it is, I'll just have to wait.

At least the location changes every year. That's pretty cool, and it makes it easier for people all over to get to a bootcamp eventually.

Really, I'd be happy with just meeting OSC and thanking him for his books, which I have thoroughly enjoyed. I lived in Greensboro for a few years, and my roommate worked in a bookstore that (supposedly) OSC frequented. Still, I never once met OSC in Greensboro. Unless I waited on him when I worked at Bennigan's in Greensboro in '94... might've happened.

Maybe OSC will hold a bootcamp in England or Europe someday...? And maybe I'll win the lottery, too; now that MaryRobinette has given permission. Go on, Mary, give OSC permission to hold a bootcamp in England. Go on.

Now, if only $800 will appear in my bank account, I'll believe in God.

Otherwise, I'll have to scrape, beg, and panhandle.

Fetch! Now the pressure is really on. I am hoping to be able to apply. It all depends on the success of Reverend Clayton.

anyhow, cut to the time two years later when my daughter was born. I planned on breastfeeding for a year or so, but lo and behold a workshop was advertised in San Francisco and I wanted to go. I scraped together the money, bought a ticket and a breastpump and left my husband in charge of the children for the weekend. I was only gone three days.

When I returned, my daughter refused to nurse any more. She had gotten used to the bottle and refused the breast. I was devastated.

Did I get a lot of tremendous value out of my workshops? Yes, much of which is still with me to this day. Would I do it again? No. I felt the price I paid was too high. I always regretted losing the opportunity to breastfeed (I didn't have any more children), and in a way I still regret it twenty two years later.

If breastfeeding isn't that emotionally important to you, then go ahead and go... but if it IS, I'd hang in there for one more year and go next year. It will give you more time to prepare, both as a mom and as a writer.

But you have to go with what you are most comfortable doing.

Don't slight your story, or its ending, in hopes that he'll think it "bad enough" to let you attend. Write a cover letter explaining that you definitely think you have MUCH to learn from attending bootcamp. Be specific, if you can, about areas on which you'd like to work.

Send the rest of the tale that you have written. Say that you are having trouble with a decent ending. Summarize the ending that you think is lame, letting him know that it is unsatisfactory to you. Ask for suggestions.

Then, last but not least, tell OSC that if you are "too good" for his bootcamp, that this is ultimately his fault for providing such a wonderful resource as Hatrack!! *G*

Good luck!!

Susan

Hopefully next year I'll be in a position to apply, myself. And accepted or told I'm too good to go, either way I would feel very very honoured.

I do hope, no matter what, that you still get to go to Boot Camp. So much of what you learn is just from that unique experience. I am very proud of you and wish you all the best...but I certainly do not envy you, not one little bit.

Autumnmuse--I am jealous. Envious. Green. Coveting.

ERG! Now I have to go and repent!