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Author Topic: 13 lines, curious
Sylvan
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I just started lurking on these forums, and I was curious what the response to the first 13 line's of the story I'm currently working on would be.

The story is called Celtin's Forge (Celtins Forge? I suck at grammar). I haven't finished the first chapter of this particular story, much less the whole novel, but if anyone asks, I'll finish up the first chapter and send it to them.

.........................
Celtin awoke slowly. Yesterday had been a long, hard day, as today promised to be. He heard the ringing of the forge already, and a barely audible chanting beneath it. Alsus, his master, was already at work. Celtin pushed himself off what passed for his bed and walked the one pace to his washstand.

He had laid out water the night before, when he had cleaned off ash, dried sweat and whatever other grit had managed to accumulate on himself and his clothes. Now he washed his face and shaved, using a small bit of highly polished steel as a guide to his thickly callused hands. He studied his face in the mirror, and what he saw pleased him.

EDIT: Edited for format, tabs didn't carry over.

[This message has been edited by Sylvan (edited April 09, 2004).]


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Survivor
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Bit odd, eh what?

If you're about to do the "looks in a mirror to reveal his rugged/sensitive/fair/dimpled/whatever face to the reader" thing, delete it when you finish writing the chapter.

Some of your phrases are a little strange, "walked the one pace....laid out water" and so forth, and some of your concepts seem real strange, like washing the forge off after you've slept and using a polished piece of steel as a washstand mirror.

What's the setting?


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Sylvan
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His appearance is relevant to the story, and what follows from there is a detailed description of his face.

If you read it, it says he laid out the water et cetera the night before, and that was when he cleaned up. This morning he just washed his face and shaved ;-)

Edit: Oh, and the setting is fantasy. He's a smith, and uses metal for just about everything. Really, the practice of using glass and spraying various substances on the back of it to make a mirror didn't develop till later.

Edit 3: (Edit 2 being to fix a tense issue I didn't like ;-)(I love edit's apparently, I wish it showed the thread you are responding to while you write your current) As for walking a pace to the washstand, that's a pretty easy fix.

"pushed off what passed for his bed and stood at his washstand." Or some such.

Does it come off as jarring though? I hoped it would give an idea of the dimensions of his sleeping area, but if it comes out poorly, it should be changed.

[This message has been edited by Sylvan (edited April 09, 2004).]


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Christine
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All right, as suual..my first, unblemished reactions to your piece followed by comments on other people's comments:

"He heard the ringing of the forge already, and a barely audible chanting beneath it."

This is a strange sentence. What's up with the chanting? Does he know what it is? And if so, is it normal? If he knows what it is, expects it, and it's normal I would say "THE barely audible..." If he knows what it is but it's not normal, some explanation would be nice. If he doesn't know what it is, then either it should surprise him and he should wonder about it or it should be low enough to be beyond his perception and as POV character, you shouldn't fairly mention it. Sort of a nit, but it was actually my biggest concern with the entire section here.

"...what passed for a bed..." this was actually a clever use of words, but it kept me feeling empty when you left it at that. Why did it only "pass for a bed"? Was it made of straw, or was it a cot? I think once you say that you need to add just a tiny bit more description to clarify the image.

"....one pace to his washstand." perfect, he's in a very small bedroom, got it crystal clear and you managed to get that image in me while carrying on with the action.

Do you know what OSC says about using a mirror to describe a person's appearance? DON'T!!! If it's important to the story, then it will come up naturaly, and the mirror seems like an author intrusion. On the other hand, I don't think this is such a hard-and-fast rule that it can't be broken.

Now I'm going to peak at everyone else's comments to date...

I had no problem with the night before thing...perhaps Survivor was simply reading too early in the morning.

I don't quite understand what Survivor means by strange phrases...as you see above, I ointed out the exact same phrase as very well done. I am curious, Survivor, what is was that made it strange.

I assumed it was fantasy because it had a smith...it just sort of goes alone together. We don't have much historical novels around here or old western's, and the assumption is fair because I will have read the book jacket before I bought it anyway.

You can view the thread you're responding too...use the far-right scrollbar to go down to the bottom of your screan. There you will see a window that has the thread in it.

I wouldn't fix the thing about the washstand....at least, not with your new proposal. Keep in mind always that the things we say here are suggestions and should only ever be taken as such. If you don't want to fix something, if it doesn't ring true, dont't worry about it. I also find it to be a fundamental mistake to begin making corrections after one response. See what other people think first.


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Sylvan
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You would prefer it as 'the barely audible...' then, it is normal.

The bed is explained toward the end of the chapter, it wouldn't make sense at this point.

I wanted to use his appearance as a lead in to the next part, so people make some mental connections and ask some questions. Then, when I start a bit of a lengthy description of various points, it will be more interesting because it answers questions the readers have already asked themselves. However, it isn't really necessary to use the mirror for the description, it could easily be done as a counterpoint to Alsus's description. Which makes no sense with only the first 13 lines to look at, but oh well.

Viewing your reply helped this reply out a lot, thanks for the tip =).

Btw, the chanting is a hook to the next part, so you'll read a page or so more and get it explained. By the time you have it explained, you'll have gotten a couple more hooks, I often do a string of hooks when I want to explain things. By the time you have your answer to the previous question, you have one or two more questions that keep you reading. And by the time your done with the explanation, it'll make you curious about where the character is going. I hope that wasn't to confusing. My point is, I want the reader to be curious about the chanting, and tried to leave it a bit confusing.

Edit: spelling

[This message has been edited by Sylvan (edited April 09, 2004).]


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Inkwell
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My first impression was curiosity and an interest in where this was going...which is good. Some of the supposed 'quirks' Survivor mentioned have validity, though others are merely confined to personal preference in regards to writing style (i.e. "...walked the one pace..."). It reads differently than other stories, which I'm not opposed to. A fresh approach to word usage and form may help you if you choose to submit the finished product in the future.

I do have one fairly specific nit (and this is based upon my personal preference, so please do not take it as solid gold if it conflicts with your own mind-set). The use of 'already' in the second, and then again in the third sentence, distracted me a little from the flow of the story. I find that using a word back-to-back, even if it is in different sentences, can sound a little off. Not all agree with this, I'm sure, but it's something you might want to consider. I concur with most of what Christine posted, as well, and as she seems to have covered all the points I picked up on while reading over your excerpt, I'll leave things at that. I think you've got something promising here. It's hard to tell the quality of a story from such a small excerpt, or understand all the nuances the writer has chosen to embed in the prose. Good luck on the rest of the tale...I like what you've put down so far.


Inkwell
------------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

[This message has been edited by Inkwell (edited April 09, 2004).]


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Sylvan
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Actually, your right about the 'already' thing, I hadn't even noticed it. It bugs the hell out of me sometimes when I see that sort of thing. Plus, one of the 'already's is what one of my old english teacher's would call deadwood, a word that add's absolutely nothing to the meaning of the sentence. Just rereading it after you pointed it out, it's bugging me. Thanks =).

I'm going to finish this chapter up tonight after I get home from work. I'm loving this near instant feedback thing. Of course, I'll have to redo and undo a few parts to iron out some issues I noticed when I reread it last night, but it should be done shortly.


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Kolona
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quote:
I love edit's apparently, I wish it showed the thread you are responding to while you write your current

I'm not sure this is what you meant, but check the topic "Forum Use Epiphany."

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mogservant
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It seems like you have a lot of "I'll explain laters" just in this opening 13 lines. The thing is it brought up questions in my mind and then when I read everyone else's posts it seems to have done the same for them. Remember it takes more than the smell of a banquet to hook a fish. It needs a nibble before it will bite. Sometimes it's better to give us a little interesting explanation now so that we can trust you'll explain the rest. Otherwise having too many "unsolved mysteries" can quickly turn a reader off. At least that's what it would do to me. I liked the description and context though.
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teddyrux
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My comments without having read anyone else's.
quote:
walked the one pace to his washstand
This is confusing. I assume that you're trying to show that his romm is small, but "the one pace" is confusing.

quote:
when he had cleaned off ash, dried sweat and whatever other grit had managed to accumulate on himself and his clothes
It appears as if he went to bed dirty and washed off this morning. I'm certain that's not what you meant to say, but that's the way I read it.

Enough's been said about the mirror use that I'll only say that I agree with it.

Kolona: I think that's what Sylvan meant.

Sylvan: I hope that my comments don't bother you. They're my opinion as a reader and fellow writer. Any and all suggestions are just that, suggestions. You can take them or leave them as you wish. If you feel the need to explain what you've written, I suggest asking for feedback on more than the first 13 lines. That way everything should be explained.

Rux

:}


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Survivor
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Eh, some people like the odd bits, some don't. I usually vote for the common usage as long as it means what you want to say. "Set out water" and "took one step" are fine with me. And when you overdo some things, you're likely to overlook others.

Sorry I didn't catch that bit about his washing up being done the night before. That still leaves us with him not washing the forge off when he left the forge. As you darn well better know (if you're writing about a preindustrial age smith), there would be a big old barrel of fairly warm water right there at the forge he could use (at least one). Having a washstand up in his room makes no sense at all in that case.

As you should also darn well better know, highly polished non-stainless steel will rust noticably within minutes of being exposed to water...and nickel steel in preindustrial times was often considered more valuable than gold (because the only natural source was nickle-iron meteorites). I don't know if there are any accounts of true chromium steel prior to the modern age.

And the mirror thing...it isn't just an OSC thing. Every big writer will tell you not to pull that crap. Some will say it in much blunter language than Card uses in any of his books, some only mention it if asked. If his appearance has a plot effect, then mention it then...just assume he knows about what he looks like and that his looks have just come into play.

Since this is going to be on the first page of the story anyway, could you just synop for us why his appearance is so important?


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Sylvan
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I wouldn't normally, but I'm bored at work, so might as well I suppose.

He is a crafter of magical items, such as swords, tools, armor, etc. The nature of the magic he uses changes his appearance. He has been an apprentice for 18 years, since the age of five. Currently, his hair is the color of steel, his irises are the color up steel, while the whites have a faint marbled steel look, and his skin has started to take on the tint of steel, though he hasn't noticed the last yet.

His master, Alsus, is completely the color of steel except for his pupils, which are black.

As his appearance changes, it marks how much more powerful he's become in his craft, though that will probably never be directly stated in the story. I'm just going to change it so after I describe the appearance of his master, I'm going to describe him, so you can see the differences directly. The disadvantage of this is when you read his eyes and hair have a steel color, it won't really seem that odd, and won't get you asking questions, but the advantage is it will lead naturally into a discription of how the magic Celtin practices will effect him.

Several people seem to have a problem with both the pace to washstand thinking he went to sleep all dirty, so I think I'll figure out a better way of wording it.

When you say, "That leaves us with him not washing the forge off when he left the forge," I'm not sure if you mean him washing the forge itself off or the grit from the forge off himself, but in anycase, neither are true. It doesn't state where he washed himself off, or whether or not he cleaned up the forge. He wouldn't use that water in anycase, because the water would have a ton of the magic little bits of steel dust in it, as you'd read as soon as he walks out of his sleeping area.

Since I told you all that, I might as well tell you about the bed as well. It is made of purified iron and covered in glyphs. He sleeps directly on the iron, and it helps return magical energy to his body. It wouldn't exactly make sense when you haven't even learned he uses magic yet.

Oh, about the steel oxidizing. While it's true that both iron and steel rust easily, both their purifying and processing methods are a bit different from what was common in the Middle Ages, and from what they are now. While I could go into a rather lengthy description of how magic works in my little universe, I won't. Besides that, coating metal with oil was a common practice in those days to prevent exactly that, the water getting to the steel and beginning the process of creating iron oxide (rust). As a smith, I personally think it can be assumed he can and does take care of steel properly.

Edit: spelling

[This message has been edited by Sylvan (edited April 12, 2004).]


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Sylvan
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quote:
It seems like you have a lot of "I'll explain laters" just in this opening 13 lines. The thing is it brought up questions in my mind and then when I read everyone else's posts it seems to have done the same for them. Remember it takes more than the smell of a banquet to hook a fish. It needs a nibble before it will bite. Sometimes it's better to give us a little interesting explanation now so that we can trust you'll explain the rest. Otherwise having too many "unsolved mysteries" can quickly turn a reader off. At least that's what it would do to me. I liked the description and context though.

Well, 13 lines isn't even half a page if the document is set up as you should send it to editors (1" margins all around, double spaced, 12 point font, etc). While I could write a nice suspenceful hook, or action packed one, or whatever else I wanted, this story starts on a sunny day in a wierd world. And while, to modify your simile, the sight of a fly is not enough to hook a fish, it is enough to get the fish to jump out of the water and bite, which is enough to hook a fish (if your fly fishing of course ;-).

The explinations start coming in the third paragraph (which will come earlier since I'm moving Celtin's physical description to later). If someone can't read two relatively short paragraphs before they start getting some answers, they can't read any book at all.

In anycase, if you could give me a descriptive example of something that part of something else that is complicated, interconnected, doesn't exist in our world, doesn't jump right into it, as it is the beginning of a book, in 120 words or less (my 13 lines was 119 words), and can't be described at all well without describing the things it is connected to, it would be helpful to me so I could better understand how to go about it. Thanks in advance.

Edit: Oh, and you can't use words like antidisestablishmentarianism either, since anyone would put the book down at that point =p.

[This message has been edited by Sylvan (edited April 12, 2004).]


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mogservant
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I apologize if I came off as condescending. I post my opinions but I'm definately ok with being wrong (and consequently, quite used to it). You're right about the 13 lines thing you've got much more time to hook someone and with what you've described you seem to have some good ideas to hook them with. "I spoke once, but I have no answer- twice, but I will say no more."
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Survivor
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Yeah, the fact that his bed is made of iron needs to be mentioned right off...it's pretty important. If you don't mention it, then the reader is going to think that you've described a bed with a mattress and headboard and so forth, and so when you get around to mentioning that he sleeps on a slab of iron the reader is going to spot that as a contradiction.

Besides, starting off with an element that signels to the reader that this is a totally fantastic setting will help you a lot.

quote:
Celtin awoke slowly, the magical energy flow from his iron [something or other, don't call it a bed] was too soothing/warm/cold/painful for waking to be a quick enterprise.

If you open with something like this, then the reader is primed to expect strangeness. Also, you should always have as much of the setting introduced as possible. If you use a conventional term for something, then readers will form the conventional image.

Still don't see why he can't wash off in the quenching barrel, since anything in there is already on his clothes and skin too. And coating a polished steel mirror with oil substancially decreases its ability to function as a mirror. Just have the mirror be enchanted, and say that, "mirror of charmed/warded/enchanted steel" rather than "bit of highly polished steel". See rule mentioned above, a "bit of highly polished steel" is presumed to be non-enchanted, as that would be a fairly important characteristic, well worth noting.

Play fair with the reader...don't use misleading terms and then casually mention five scenes later that what you meant to say was something totally different.


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Sylvan
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As a update, this is the first 13, modified slightly based on feedback.

quote:
Celtin awoke slowly. Yesterday had been a long, hard day, as today promised to be. He heard the ringing of the forge already, and a barely audible chanting beneath it. Alsus, his master, was at work. Celtin pushed himself off what passed for his bed and stepped to his washstand.

The night before he had cleaned off ash, dried sweat and whatever other grit had managed to accumulate on himself and his clothes, and laid out some water for this morning. Now, he washed his face and shaved, using a small bit of highly polished steel as a guide to his thickly callused hands. He pulled his hair back into a ponytail, clipping it with a steel loop he had made.


I've been considering your points, Survivor, and I think they are very valid. I'm going to look over the whole chapter with those in mind.

Edit: forgot that tabs don't carry over agian.

[This message has been edited by Sylvan (edited April 13, 2004).]


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Survivor
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Hmmm, the modifications seem too slight.

The thing is, here you've gone and filled us in on what this scene is supposed to communicate, about the magic iron slab and his iron flesh and all that, and what you have here completely fails to address, introduce, or even hint at any of it.

In a fantasy, the expectation is that the main character will start in a non-magical setting and life and go on a journey into the magic of the story. There are a variety of reasons for this, but it is also a matter of conventional expectation.

Since you aren't following that expectation, you really do need to signel the reader right away that this character is already living a highly magical life. And this opening just doesn't cut it.


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