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Author Topic: Terminology time
Edmund
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I'm looking for suggestions for some terminlogy for the story I'm working on now.

For those of you who haven't read the opening of this story in a previous post, the basic concept centers around a race of people called the Dianasians (named after the Roman goddess, Diana, who ruled the moon, animals, and the hunt). This race of people are essentially human except that their tangibility phases with the moon -- intangible during the new moon, exceptionally tough during a full moon, and everything else in between.

What I'm struggling with right now are good terms for how these people would refer to their own phases (intangibility, etc.) with their own jargon. It seems like the kind of thing they would have their own words to describe, since it's such an intrinsic part of who they are.

Suggestions?


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mikemunsil
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For those of us who haven't read supporting pieces, how about a little bit more info?

Just how intangible is intangible?

    If they fall on a blade of grass, are they speared to death?
    Does the wind blow them around?
    Can they draw breath when the air is so much more tangible than they?

Tangible?

    Are they more massive?
    Can they walk without sinking into the ground?

You have probably already figured all this out, no? And, if so, the answer may lie in your words. If the intangible phase leads to misery, then their terms might reflect that? If they exult in the hunt during the tangible phase, then perhaps terms that reflect the exultation?

Maybe they are just out of phase with 'reality' instead? and the world becomes less tangible to them as they become more tangible?

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 16, 2004).]


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HSO
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an online thesaurus can be you best friend at times like this. For instance, thesaurus.com has several entries for tangible; here's only one:

Entry: bodily
Function: adjective
Definition: fleshly
Synonyms: actual, animal, carnal, corporal, corporeal, fleshly, gross, human, hylic, material, natural, normal, organic, physical, sensual, somatic, substantial, tangible, unspiritual
Antonyms: intellectual, mental, soulful, spiritual
Source: Roget's New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.


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Edmund
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Good questions.

I use intangible to mean ghost-like. They can pass through walls and such, are slightly transparent when you look at them. They can't eat or drink because they can touch anything. They have a great feast each month during the last days of the waning crescent moon to prepare their bodies for the next few days when they won't be able to eat. I'll need a name for this feast, too.

During the full moon, they become so tough/hard that their skin can't be broken, even by a blade or even a bullet (think Superman) -- which comes in handy, since during the full moon they hunt werewolves.

One of the problems is that this society has been based around that hunt for thousands of years and they have gotten to a point where there are not that many werewolves left anymore, leaving these people with the question 'What now?'


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HSO
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Right then. Ghost-like it is... Er... Hmmm...

One thing to consider is to keep it a simple term... as often as it's used, the first thing that comes to mind is: The Change.

Since it's cyclic and depending on the moon, it wouldn't hurt to refer to that, such as: Lunality.

You know, just make something up. And I was serious about the thesaurus and wasn't being facetious at all. I make up all sorts of names for stuff just by reading one or a dictionary. Good stuff!


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Edmund
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Think I'd get in (much) trouble if I just called it That Time Of The Month...
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HSO
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Why? What's wrong w/ that? Perfectly normal expression used by billions of females. Of course, once men use it (depending on context and who they say it to), it could be used derogatorily.

Still, I think it would be funny if you referred to it once as that... Once can be funny; too much might wear thin on sensitive people.

EDIT: Wasn't it Mark Twain who said (roughly) that if you didn't offend someone with your writing, then you haven't written anything worthwhile?

I could be completely making that up, btw.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 16, 2004).]


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mikemunsil
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moonweak and moonstrong?

might be a nice interplay between moonstrong and headstrong.

hmm, anyone know the etymology of monstrous? is it related to the moon in any way?


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HSO
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Monstrous is likely a French derivative... Monster...

Tho'... mayb French monsters only appeared when the moon came out, such as the topic at hand: werewolves.


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MaryRobinette
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I like coporeal, personally. You might, in addition to these other suggestions, go back to the Latin roots to create your words since the people are named after a Roman goddess.
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mikemunsil
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debilis -e [feeble , weak].

durus -a -um [hard , harsh; tough, strong, enduring]; in demeanour or tastes, [rough, rude, uncouth]; in character, [hard, austere],sometimes [brazen, shameless]; of things, [hard, awkward, difficult, adverse]. Adv. dure and duriter, [hardly, hardily; roughly, rudely; harshly, unpleasantly, severely].

from http://www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm


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HSO
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Yeah... knowing the eytmology (roots) of words can be a huge help... Mr. Dictionary to the rescue, of course. But, some words just scream out their etymology and it's easy to pick out.

Okay... let's break this down, all right?

We've got mostly-humans who are solid when the moon is full to fight off werewolves. When they moon is waning, they become (essentially) wisps of smoke...

General words to help you come up with something perhaps:

Bodies.. Soma, Somatic,
Moon.... Luna, Lunar, (interestingly, the word lunatic is derived from the moon--1 guess to work out why)

Somaluna
Lunarsoma
Lunasomatic. That's your word.

Or not.


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djvdakota
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Would something as simple as "The Phasing?" work? With other moon-referecne words to describe the different 'phases?' IE.

The Waxing
The Waning
The Fullness
The Darkness

Or synonyms thereof.

I dunno. But sometimes simpler is better.


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Robyn_Hood
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I found this history of the Roman calendar and thought, hey, Roman goddess! Also these people change according to the moon.

http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/heights/4617/calends.htm

quote:
The early Romans used a calendar based on the Moon. At the New Moon, the dark point in the lunar cycle, the Romans honored Janus, the Spirit of Beginnings, and Juno, the Female force and Queen of Heaven. This day was called the Calends. On this day, the priests decreed the dates of the other two guideposts of the month. At the Full Moon, the brightest point of the lunar cycle, the Romans honored Jupiter, the Male force and the King of Heaven. This day was known as the Ides and fell on either the 13th or 15th of the month. In between the Calends and the Ides, came the Nones. The exact day of the month varied as the length of the month varied, but the Nones fell 8 days before the Ides. There were no names for the period after the Full Moon when the moon was waning because this time was considered unlucky. The Romans counted time from these 3 points of the month, naming a day by how many days before or after the points it came. Predie Calends April would be March 31st, or one day before the Calends of April.

Based on this, the feast could be The Feast of Janus or Calends. And what better name than Jupiter for when they are more or less invicible (since Jupiter is the ruler of the roman gods -- according to one source I found).

Just some food for thought


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mikemunsil
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Monstrous

monstrous - 1460, "unnatural, deviating from the natural order, hideous," from L. monstruosus "strange, unnatural," from monstrum (see monster). Meaning "enormous" is from 1500; that of "outrageously wrong" is from 1573. Monstrosity "abnormality of growth" is from 1555, from L.L. monstrositas "strangeness," from L. monstrosus, a collateral form of monstruosus (cf. Fr. monstruosité). Sense of "quality of being monstrous" is first recorded 1656. Noun meaning "a monster" is attested from 1643.

from http://www.etymonline.com/


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Survivor
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Going a bit astray here, I wonder if there is any corresponding downside during the full moon for these people.

After all, during the new moon they're basically immune to any kind of destructive force, right? So during the full moon are they super strong but perhaps very sensitive to certain things?


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Edmund
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Great stuff on the calendar. I've been trolling the internet on and off all afternoon and didn't find anyting that helpful. Thanks.

As far as vulnerabilities, though they can't be hurt during their intangible stage, I'm thinking that since they can't eat or drink either, so they come out of it that phase very weak, which is when they would be most vulnerable. Also, I'm thinking that although their skin can be broken durng the full moon, they could sustain internal injuries like having an organ crushed or something due to the phenomenal strength a werewolf would possess.

Also, during this time of intangibility they are pretty much helpless, which is why they need a human or two around to help keep things together, which is no fun either.

[This message has been edited by Edmund (edited August 16, 2004).]


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Survivor
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Yeah, I guess that works okay. Of maybe they get really heavy, so at the full moon they weigh a lot more and have to sit on the ground to avoid breaking all their furnature. It would also mean that their strength didn't give them any agility bonus (whereas werewolves be jumping over houses and such).

Of course, that's an advantage, in a way. With the extra mass, they can go right through walls (but in a completely different way from during their intangible phase).


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HSO
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I really like the premise of this story you've got going on, and if and when you need readers, then count me in!

In the meantime, don't let the word you're looking for hang you up... just throw in some ##### or ***** and move on. Eventually, you'll find something you do like and you can just "EDIT-REPLACE" all in one go (or two if you need to conjugate).


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Robyn_Hood
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Just some more brainstorming. I was thinking a bit more about the Roman Calender info and thought maybe they call their transformations The phases of Jupiter.
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NewsBys
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I really like the stuff Robyn suggested and the Roman calendar.

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Edmund
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This story is taking on more and more of a Roman flavor all the time. Their goddess Diana is goddess of the moon, the hunt, and animals, and I'm also thinking seriously about twistng the legend of Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome who were raised by a she-wolf, to exlain the origins of these people and the werewolf link. I've got a lot of research to do, but I'm enjoying it.
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Robyn_Hood
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quote:
I don't like the subtle infiltration of 'something for nothing' philosophies into the very hearthstone of the American family. I believe that 'Thou shalt earn the bread by the sweat of thy face' was a benediction and not a penalty. Work is the zest of life; there is joy in its pursuit.

Branch Rickey

Sometimes it is just as much fun to find all the puzzle pieces as it is to do the puzzle Have fun researching!


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Warrior Poet
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I was an astronomy major for quite awhile, before my life took another turn. So I was thinking...

The phases of the Moon are as follows in technical reference:

Full
Crescent (waxing and waning)
Gibbous (waxing and waning)
Half
New

Then you have

Blue Moons (light blue hue, due to humidity and atmosphic conditions near sea level)
Harvest Moons (yellow to orange in hue, due to particulates from field work, etc.)
Hunter's Moons (very large full moons, due atmospheric magnification)
Blood Moons (red in hue, due to forest fire or smoke of disasters or war)

I don't know how you could play with this terminology, but it would be fun messing around with the language.

Also, go get a latin to english dictionary, as well as greek roots, then mix them up to get cool new words.

Here a nifty site about phases of the moon.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/moon/Phases.shtml

Alright, rock on, and write hard!

WP


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Robyn_Hood
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I was just thinking about your werewolves and remembered White Wolf (an RPG company) has a Werewolf series.

If you're looking for some ideas about werewolves in the modern world.

I've only ever used their Vampire books, but I've heard good things about Werewolf as well.

Here is a link to their website and their books are generally available in gaming and some comic stores.

http://www.white-wolf.com/werewolf.html


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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As the site you give us points out, Warrior Poet, a "blue moon" is the second full moon in a single month (or, less commonly, the fourth full moon in a single season--since most seasons only have three full moons).

Anyone know why we don't have a lunar eclipse somewhere on the earth every time there's a full moon, and a solar eclipse somewhere on the earth every time there's a new moon? (You could have a planet in a system somewhere in the universe where there are eclipses that often--at least partial ones, depending on the relative sizes of the satellite and the primary.)


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Survivor
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There is at least a partial lunar eclipse nearly every full moon.

Solar eclipses tend to be separated by about a half year because the orbit of our moon doesn't align perfectly with the ecliptic. If two solar eclipses are closer than six months, they will probably be in different hemispheres.

For most planets, the lunar eclipse is even more common, since the planet is much larger than the moon (or moons). Also, Jupiter and Saturn will have several solar eclipses somewhere on their "surfaces" almost every month.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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quote:
Solar eclipses tend to be separated by about a half year because the orbit of our moon doesn't align perfectly with the ecliptic.

This was the answer I was looking for. If you've ever paid attention to where the full moon rises each month, you may have seen that it comes up in a different part of the sky from where the sun rose on most months. Sometimes it comes up north of where the sun rose, and sometimes it comes up south, and this isn't entirely because of the seasons (and the sun rising in different parts of the sky).

The moon's orbit is slanted out of the elliptic one way part of the year, then, as the earth goes around the sun, the moon's orbit crosses the elliptic (when eclipses can happen) and is slanted out of the elliptic the other way for the rest of the year. (The elliptic is the plane in which most of the planets orbit around the sun. Pluto's orbit is also at a slant in relationship to the elliptic, so that there are times when it is actually closer to the sun than Neptune is.)

If you had a satellite around a planet that did orbit exactly in that system's elliptic, you'd have some kind of eclipse twice a "month" (at new "moon" and at full "moon"), and you could create cultures/religions for your planet's inhabitants based on that.

Just a bit of "trivia" that might be of use to someone in their SF worldbuilding.


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Survivor
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Hmmm...it still might be pretty rare for any given place to experience an eclipse, unless the moon were nearly as big as the planet. And I think that if the eclipse were to occur both more frequently and predictably, that would actually make it less important religiously. One major factor in many successful religions in primative times was the ability of the priests to predict an eclipse.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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I would think that frequent and predictable occurences would at least affect the way a planet's inhabitants work up their calendar.

If the same kind of eclipse happened the same way at the same time of year, I would expect the eclipses to be even more a part of the calendar--each kind and time having its own name, perhaps?

Of course, the orbits would have to match in a certain way for the same kind of eclipse to happen the same way at the same time of year, but in all the universe who's to say that might not happen?

Just some ideas. <shrug>


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Ferrus Magnate
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The trouble is that you have practical considerations to think about here that I don't see a lot of people addressing outright.

Here's the thing: if it's a common thing that happens to everybody, then it's probably going to have a simple term in the language a lot of people can easily understand.

One of my biggest gripes with science fiction and fantasy stories revolves around the way the characters talk about some truly common element like "breath" and call it "The Life Giving Thing Which Exudes Out of My Lungs and Is Part of the Star God's Essence."

It should have a simple name, preferrably an English name. It's too bad that terrible scifi and fantasy has co-opted so many of the words for ghosts, because a simple term like "wraithing" would be perfect: short, capable of being modified ("I wraithed, he's wraithing, I can barely wraith right now").

That's the SORT of word you should be looking for...



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Robyn_Hood
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Just thinking back to my days working in retail, I never used to believe that people were affected by the full moon. I thought it was an old wives tale. Once I started working in retail and had to be around any and all kinds of people, my opinion changed. I'd start talking with co-workers and we'd each say something about how we'd had a really bizzare shopper come in or a pretty wierd phone call. We'd look at the calendar and sure enough, we were into the full moon. One of the ladies who was into mysticism (sp?) a bit said the effects of the full moon could be felt three days before and three days after the full moon. At first this sounded wierd but it didn't take long to convince me.

Are you planning to work a luna-tic angle into these people?


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Survivor
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Obviously, the full moon is a powerful symbol that does affect human behavior. But everyone seems to react to it differently.

One problem with statistical studies of erratic behavior is that the more erratic the behavior, the more normal it looks from a statistical point of view, divergent erratic effects cancel each other out.

In the same way that putting a traffic light on an intersection "causes" a spike in the number of traffic accidents or increased contraceptive use "causes" increased pregnancy rates, most consistent behaviors alter statistical behavior in noticable ways.

But the statistical behavior of a population will only reveal causes that have a consistent effect. More people "acting wierd" is by definition not a consistent effect.

I'm always amused by the fact that people always "debunk" the effect of the full moon by asserting that people are more likely to percieve and remember the behavior of others as being strange during a full moon. In other words, they claim that people exhibit a noticibly different psychology, which means that the full moon has no effect on the mind


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Robyn_Hood
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quote:
I'm always amused by the fact that people always "debunk" the effect of the full moon by asserting that people are more likely to percieve and remember the behavior of others as being strange during a full moon.

Nine times out of ten (or there abouts ) I wouldn't even know that it was a full moon. I'd just find myself and others talking about strange behaviours seeming to happen all of a sudden within a couple of days (i.e. an irate customer trying to return something they'd bought on sale more than a year ago; customer all upset about the ring they had bought but, although we sold jewelry, we didn't sell rings). After noticing the events I would look at a calendar and discover it was all within three days +/- of a full moon.


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Ferrus Magnate
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Statistics lie.

It's possible to show a correlation between the amount of ice-cream eaten in a given day with the crime rate.

Does this mean eating ice-cream causes one to go out and committ vicious crimes?

No. It's the HEAT that has been shown to be a factor, as it agitates people and they become more violent and aggressive.

So there's a correlation, but not a direct one.

The better question for your story might be, "WHY do people change like this at the moon's phase?" My presumption would be it would have to have been some kind of action done by man that caused it in the past, perhaps some kind of technology that has been forgotten and coincidentally ties in with the phases of the moon...


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Edmund
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This post is getting very long, so I hope the people who have heard this before wil forgive the repitition. However, to brng everyone else back up to speed...

This is fantasy, not SF, so the why issue and the specifics of how are not going to be explored at length. These are the descendants of humans who were cursed thousands of years ago, and the curse remains unbroken.

Just trying to keep the conversation from drifting too far off course...

Thanks to everyone who has been such a big help. This is fun.


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Ferrus Magnate
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Oh, I saw it was a fantasy story. People often get into huge debates about what makes fantasy versus science fiction, but for me the whole thing hinges on whether or not you're going to explain (or, more accurately for most science fiction, feebly try to explain) the weirdness.

"Star Wars" is fantasy because The Force isn't explained. That's why it's pretty dumb for GL to come back later and, ripping off an idea from the sickbed of Charles Wallace, create his "midichloridians" because people needed to know how it all worked (and it still doesn't!).

If you have no intention of explaining the moon madness, then you need to ask yourself ONE big question: WHY is it there? In the story? If it's not central to the action, then maybe as painful as it is, it needs to be excised. If it's not essential to the plot (ie, the plot is all about the ghost powers, or the moon, or these ancient people's reactions to the moons), then you've got no valid reason to put it into the story. It's extraneous, and might make a good paragraph here or there but is otherwise a distraction from what IS important. Imagine if The Force never figured into the Star Wars story but somebody decided to put it into there anyway just "because I wanted to do it."

Ugh.


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Edmund
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I didn't bring up 'moon madness,' nor do I have any intention of going there. That was just somebody (sorry, I forget who) having fun with the various possibilities.
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