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Author Topic: Hrzecal Bay
Omakase
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Hello -- looking for some feedback on my opening 13 lines...

Reclining on a stone portico overlooking Hrzecal Bay, Joram Manka restlessly honed one of his tempered dudgeons and watched the clouds swirling over the aquamarine water. It was just after First Dawn and the ruby rays of Mother pierced the fog, adding to the garish display from the city below. Chill dawn air swept across the open expanse of the courtyard as it fell from the highlands to the bay below drawing the faint scent of eucalyptus to his nostrils. Already the cold stone had worked its way through his thin calfskin breeches and began steadily numbing his flesh, bringing a dull ache to the hollow bones within.
He paid it no heed.
“Sithgar and the Ant Bear shall meet again,” he mouthed as he gazed into the sky.


Thanks!


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pantros
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Excellent language. - perhaps too excellent. I felt intimidated by the first sentence. While "dudgeon" is a perfectly legitimate alternative to dagger, I would probably avoid the first sentence as an opportunity to send my readers off to find a dictionary that included the word, they might not come back.

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pantros
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You do seem to have eloquent language. I might also avoid ever using the word aquamarine to describe the color of water.
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pantros
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I would like to see a little more of your writing. Your opening lines definitely show the potential for a well thought out and creative tale.
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Beth
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yeah, I didn't know what a dudgeon was.

I also hesitated for a moment wondering why the courtyard was falling from the highlands into the bay, but I figured it out eventually.

The last line really didn't work for me. Mouthed? And it seems kind of meaningless, based on what we know so far.


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Survivor
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It's very dense, isn't it?

I found the second part of the first line, "Joram Manka restlessly honed one of his tempered dudgeons" technically excellent but somewhat ambiguous. What does "tempered" mean in this context? It could have several meanings, given the context and the term "honed". It could mean that his dudgeon was attenuated and thinned, or that it was the result of his basic emotional instability, or that it was very strong. All of these meanings seemed likely to me, and yet none of them get me any closer to knowing what kind of dudgeon it is. Is he nursing an old grudge back to full strength for some reason, or wearing his native sulky reaction to some immediate down by looking at the beautiful scenery, or what? I really have no idea.

It follows all the rules, but I have no idea what it actually means.

I liked the introduction of "First Dawn" and "Mother", but felt you should have lingered over that a bit to give the reader time to assimilate it. Perhaps if you mentioned how long it would be before the next sun rose in the sky, or compared the two (or more) suns involved. A minor digression, and one that would set the scene a bit better and give us more context. It should be easy enough to work into the POV, since Joram is watching the dawn after all.

You also move too fast over the description of the city, the bay, and the local vegetation and terrain. Way too fast.

Draw this out, let us move through it with Joram's POV informing us of the significance of each thing. We want to know what he's thinking about, that comment about him honing a "tempered" dudgeon needs to be clarified. Right now the scene flashes by so fast that none of us have time to see it.


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Omakase
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Thanks all for the critiques so far.
Much appreciated.

It appears that the "dudgeon" choice for his weapon was a bit off-putting and in reviewing it this was my conscious choice because as a reader I like to be challenged by unfamiliar vocabulary, but, alas that is a personal bent.
For Survivor - the tempered reference was merely a description of the blade construction.
Thanks for the push regarding needing more details about the opening scene.. I'll work on it.
Did anyone else feel uncomfortable about the 3rd sentence where I've got the courtyard..er.. the air falling across the courtyard?

Thanks again


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BuffySquirrel
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I don't see anything wrong in using less common words where they are appropriate. If you're only using them because they are uncommon, consider if it's worth making the reader work that bit harder. It might be .

Overall, I liked this opening, which I thought did a good job of drawing me into an unfamiliar setting without hitting me over the head with spec fic credentials.

That first line doesn't work for me, however. I can't put together a visual image of someone honing their knife restlessly.

I would recommend not modifying every noun with an adjective. It begins to look forced and overwritten after a while. Less is more with adverbs and adjectives--using them sparingly has more impact than bombarding the reader with them at every opportunity.

Chill dawn air swept across the open expanse of the courtyard as it fell...

As has been suggested, that "it" could easily refer to the courtyard rather than the air, so it is easy to misread this as the courtyard doing the falling. Consider rephrasing .

There's a definite sense of place in this opening, and the confidence in the writing bodes well for the rest.


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Survivor
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Uh...a dudgeon isn't a weapon. It's a sullen, angry mood. When a word has a current meaning, you can't use its obsolete meaning without explanation.
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Omakase
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Hi Survivor =

I never heard that usage before. It certainly makes your earlier comments clearer, however from the context I think there would have been enough to determine I didn't mean that, esp. since it is plural. Thanks for the information, I appreciate it!


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Miriel
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Well...I got confused about the dudgeon too, despite the pluralization. I thought he just had a lot of different bitternesses, tempered over time, and he was busy dwelling on a particular one. If it confuses one reader, it's likely to confuse other readers.

I also got lost in all the details. I tend to read quickly, but for this passage I had to slow down and examine every sentance clause to figure out what was going on. What details are the most important to you? To the character? I'd focus on that, and select a few sharp, precise details that will make the scene come alive. You use a lot of nice words, but the description still comes across feeling vauge and generalized to me.


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BuffySquirrel
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Dudgeon referring to dagger is an archaic meaning, not an obsolete one.

English is full of words that have more than one meaning, so sooner or later readers are going to have to learn to cope. Words we are using now will come to have different meanings in the future--does that mean future readers should be sheltered from our work in case it confuses the poor little things?


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Beth
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Well, omakase said he deliberately used an obscure meaning of the word because he likes to be challenged as a reader. He wasn't expecting anyone to know the word. I think challenging readers is fine but you have to realize that a lot of readers aren't interested in being challenged. Just understand how you may be limiting your audience with your choices.


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Warbric
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I'm a firm believer in OSC's advice, in paraphrasing St. Paul: "Faith, Hope, and CLARITY."

Oops, meant to point out the emphasis there was mine.

[This message has been edited by Warbric (edited October 06, 2005).]


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BuffySquirrel
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At the risk of becoming hopelessly recursive (it's in the dictionary), maybe the author isn't interested in challenging readers who aren't interested in being challenged? Horses for courses. If you don't want to be challenged in your reading, there's plenty of stuff that will meet your needs. Not everything has to be written that way. Mostly I find what I'm offered to read to be very unchallenging. Dudgeon didn't bother me at all .

Generic "you", she hastens to add .

[This message has been edited by BuffySquirrel (edited October 06, 2005).]


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pantros
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I think challenging readers is a great thing.

Too much challenge before you have them hooked will not hook them.

Save the big challenges for chapter four.


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Beth
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So you advocate deliberate obfuscation, buffy? Seriously?


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BuffySquirrel
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quote:
So you advocate deliberate obfuscation, buffy? Seriously?

Did I come across as doing so? Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

I confess to being irritated when writers are told they can't use any words that aren't in a 10,000 word vocabulary. If readers aren't exposed to new words, they will NEVER learn those words. If they never learn them, then writers following this diktat will never be able to use them. Vocabulary will shrink. More and more words will become off-limits. Newspeak will beckon.

Sorry, getting carried away again.

I believe somewhere way back in this thread I advocated using words appropriately. If Omakase is using "dudgeon" in order to create a sense of 'other' in their Fantasy world, then I think that's appropriate. If Omakase is indulging their love of words, I also think that is appropriate. Obfuscation for obfuscation's sake? Possibly not appropriate.

Removing words because they might send someone, somewhere, to the dictionary? Wholly inappropriate!

[This message has been edited by BuffySquirrel (edited October 06, 2005).]


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Swimming Bird
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The main thing any author should be in any fictional writing is entertaining. The reason people read any sort of fiction is to be entertained, is it not?

Entertaining in the prime directive.

If your word choice gets in the way of your story being entertaining by making it frustrating (i.e. challenging) then maybe, for the sake of entertainment, you cut it.


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BuffySquirrel
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Ideas of what is entertaining in fiction vary. Many readers find romance novels entertaining. I don't. Many readers find murder mysteries entertaining. I don't.

Whatever genre you choose to write in, whatever style you adopt, whatever subjects you write about, whatever length you write at, all those are factors that will attract some readers in hope of finding 'their kind' of entertainment and deter other readers for whom that doesn't look like their kind of entertainment at all. Inevitably.

If someone says "I am not entertained by stories with unfamiliar words that I have to look up in the dictionary", then that is a valid comment to make when critiquing. Someone going on to say, in effect, "therefore, you can't use this word, because no reader will like your story if you do", on the other hand, suggests that readers can be entertained by only one kind of story: unchallenging ones. All I am saying is that there are readers for both unchallenging, 10,000 word vocabulary stories AND for challenging, 25,000 word vocabulary stories.

I wouldn't claim this story would entertain everybody; please don't claim that it won't entertain anybody.


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Warbric
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Well, I had no problem with the word dudgeon, per se. I was already familiar with the term, but I'm a fan of edged weapons, and the context was clear enough that I could easily recall it was a dagger.

However, I did look it up -- because I'm guilty of an occasional malapropism -- and found that it is not simply an archaic word for "dagger," but a dagger with a handle fashioned from "dudgeon," itself an obsolete term for boxwood. I still do not actually object to the use of dudgeon at all, and would have no problem equipping a character with a ballock dagger or kidney dagger either.

My only point ("And I am unanimous in this!" -- Mrs. Slocum) was that you've got some readers reaching for a dictionary in the first 13 lines, but OSC is clear that the honeymoon with your readers lasts only a few paragraphs in a short story and a few pages in a novel. If they've got to put down my book to go fetch the dictionary before they're already convinced my story is truly worth the work then that is a risk I'm not at all prepared to accept.

Where I stumbled in that sentence is the word "tempered." Blades are first hardened, then tempered, or softened, to make them less brittle, more durable, less prone to shattering. I immediately assume an edged weapon carried by anyone with serious skill or intent is indeed tempered for hard use or else it is a useless decoration, so it comes off as redundant to me (probably a minority of one anyway, so small bother).

Otherwise, I liked the juxtaposition of a serene dawn, the peaceful beginning to a new day, with the restlessness of Joram, who seems to me a banked fire prepared to flare up the instant something stirs him to action.

I don't particularly like the word "mouthed," because it makes me think that he made the motions as if speaking the words but without uttering a sound. Perhaps that is your intent, but I couldn't be sure.

(Edited to remove a redundancy and to add a couple of words to improve clarity.)

[This message has been edited by Warbric (edited October 06, 2005).]


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Swimming Bird
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My points exactly.

An author already divides his reading audience when they choose to write in a certain genre. To divide it even more by making work more difficult than is has to be, thus further isolating readers instead of embracing as many as possible, would be a folly, me thinks.


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Beth
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Actually, buffy, I think we essentially agree.
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Survivor
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Okay, my bad.

I didn't reach for a dictionary. The word "dudgeon", though not one I use every single day, is not a word that makes me grab a dictionary. I didn't even think to check it till Omakase mentioned that he was using it to mean some kind of weapon. I thought the confusion was because "tempered" could mean so many different things in that context.

Not everyone knows the more current meaning of "dudgeon", but a lot of people do. Even some of the people that look it up in a dictionary are going to assume you meant the first meaning listed. I thought the notion of "honing a well tempered dudgeon" was great, I just wasn't clear on what it meant because there isn't a lot of POV information to clarify it.

In fact, that's part of why it felt natural to assume that phrase would be POV information rather than an external description of a physical action. Just a little more POV information would clarify things a lot. I'm not saying that you can't use the word, you just need to clarify the usage because the meaning you're using it in is very rare.

By the way, a "dudgeon" refers to a specific occurance of a sullen, introverted mood. So it takes the plural quite readily. If somebody were a bit bi-polar or something like that, and you refered to their "dudgeon" in the singular, it would mean some particular instance rather than more than one of them. Just a usage tip, in case you're all planning to add this one to your vocabulary.


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BuffySquirrel
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quote:
An author already divides his reading audience when they choose to write in a certain genre. To divide it even more by making work more difficult than is has to be, thus further isolating readers instead of embracing as many as possible, would be a folly, me thinks.

*beats head against wall*

If you wish to follow this policy, that's fine by me. I would only point out that the largest market share, by far, belongs to romance, and that, following this reasoning to its logical conclusion, we should all be writing that. Eschewing what c. 42% of the market finds entertaining is surely an act of much greater folly than sticking in a word that one or two people might not know.

It's amazing to me that we can all breeze past the fact that SF&F is a minority interest, one that's despised in many literary circles, is routinely sneered at by the literati, one that will render us pariahs wherever "real literature" is discussed, but we can't deal with the idea that somebody might use an unfamiliar word. Our readers can stand to be routinely sneered at as geeks, but won't reach for the dictionary. How little faith we have in them.

It might be an idea once in a while to look at how professional writers in the SF&F field write, and to what extent they're terrified of someone putting their books down because of a word that isn't commonplace. I'll post a few over in the appropriate forum.


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tchernabyelo
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I'm with Survivor on this one. I immediately sassumed that "honing one of his tempered dudgeons" was an overwritten (which I do not necessarily consider a bad thing, as anyone who's read anything of mine will know...) way of saying that he was mulling over some particular slight he had been offered, and preparing a very precise bit of sulking as a result.

I have absolutely no objection to someone using obscure words (I've been known to indulge), but I think it's a lot less wise to use a word that has an archaic meaning (which I wasn't aware of - and I consider myself to have apretty extensive vocabulary) when there is a more common meaning that a reader would be more likely to use. Have him honing a cinqueda and I have no problem - if I don't know what a cinqueda is, I can guess by context. But if I think I know what a dudgeon is, but I'm completely wrong, then at some point I'm going to hit a "huh?" moment when I realise the author and I have, effectively, been talking at cross purposes. So I wouldn't use dudgeon in this insteance.

Other than that, although the introduction is highly stylsed and doesn't really indicate where it's going to go, I would read on, because it's got a verve that I don't often see.


PS - Also, the image I get in my head from reading the first paragraph is something akin to a Lawrence Alma-Tadema painting - something like "A Coign Of Vantage" - and sentimental old Victorian painter though he might have been, I do love his art. So that helped.

PPS - BuffySquirrel, I've checked your postings in the "Published Hooks and Books" forum, and so far as I can see you've chosen examples where the author(s) have coined their own words, and those words are clear in context. That's a fine, valid and time-honoured technique, and I don't think it's the saem as the issue here. If the opening had someone "honing their fine, tempered rachkilya" then I guess we'd have all assumed it was a weapon. Made-up words, fine. Words with other, more commonly understood, meanings, not fine. What we'd be discussing if someone had been "honing their fine, tempered shuttlecock", only for it to be revealed later that a shuttlecock is a Thandraxian duelling weapon favoured by the Elders of Wangpluut...

I'll shut up now

[This message has been edited by tchernabyelo (edited October 07, 2005).]


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BuffySquirrel
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I only really "chose" Count Zero, just grabbed the others, but it's a valid criticism.
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Miriel
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One of the peculiarities of SF&F is that just about anything could happen. Especially in the first two paragraphs when no rules for this new world have been set up. Because this IS fantasy, I would just assume that "dugeon" was the meaning that I know it to be, and that some wierd magic/metaphor/something-that-will-be-explained-later is going on involving bad feelings. Maybe strong emotions are what makes magic run in this world, and he's preparing a spell created from his dudgeon. I really don't have a problem with "challenging vocabulary." But, in a fantasy context with that word, the meaning of "dudgeon" is highly ambigious, especially because the word has two meanings.

For example: I one read in a book about writing (Probably OSC's How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy) that a class was given a short story to read that talked about a bus as if it were a lumbering reptile. It was supposed to be a metaphor. The non-SF readers got it. Those who read SF thought some wierd bio-engineering was going on. I think the same problem is going on here.

So, interesting vocabulary and similies are fine, as long as the world is firmly in place and clarity isn't lost over it, IMHO.


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Omakase
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Wow! We have a lively bunch here don't we!
I think the discussions have been very interesting regarding the use of dudgeon.
If I can elaborate a bit on my choice for that -- I have always felt that when an unfamiliar setting is introduced it is reinforced strongly by vocabulary which may also be unfamiliar. As mentioned by several people, this can easily be overdone, but I think of it as just another writers tool. Unfortunately with my choice of dudgeon I did not realize it had another meaning.
Now, onward and upward...
I've given the 13 lines a bit of a rewrite (again thanks for the comments) but I still had to stick with a less familiar word for the knife. I tried knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, blah blah blah but just couldn't like it. So... comments invited once again!

Reclining on a stone portico overlooking Hrzecal Bay, Joram Manka restlessly honed one of his matching poniards and watched the clouds swirling over the azure water. It was just after First Dawn and the ruby rays of Mother pierced the fog, adding to the garish display from the city below. Chill dawn air falling from the highlands swept across an open expanse of the courtyard past him to the bay below drawing the faint scent of eucalyptus to his nostrils. He breathed deeply, savoring the aroma as his eyes wandered across the profusion of celebratory pennants and banners encircling the coliseum. Tomorrow would be the beginning of the quadrennial Epikours and he had been unable to sleep fitfully for the last few nights as he fretted about it.


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Survivor
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Interesting change in mood. Of course, you said he was "unable to sleep fitfully", which probably doesn't mean what you want.

I think that his actual feelings about things could be brought out a little sooner. Or at all, actually, since knowing he's nervous with anticipation about the upcoming celebration doesn't tell us much. In combination with the daggers and the mention of a "coliseum", it's pretty suggestive...but only on a careful reading.


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Ahavah
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Just a note: I had been formulating my comments on the first version while I read the thread. Then I found out there's a revised version. I would suggest that you edit your first post to include "Revised edition further in post". It would be more helpful to me as a reader.

Ok, so comments on the second version:

I'll list my personal bias up front. I'm not a big fan of overly wordy sentences. Maybe you're trying to set a certain tone, and it's just not grabbing me personally. I say 'overly' wordy because every one of these sentences runs at least two lines.

I would suggest dispensing with some of the many adjectives you have. In the first sentence, you don't particularly need "matching" with poniards, as you've already said "one of..." I don't feel it's really necessary to add a color description to the water, whether it's aquamarine or azure. Maybe if it were bright red or something...

quote:
Chill dawn air falling from the highlands swept across an open expanse of the courtyard past him to the bay below*,* drawing the faint scent of eucalyptus to his nostrils.

This would read SO much easier to me if you added that comma. (Although I must admit that this was another long one that had me stumbling).

I agree that "unable to sleep fitfully" is a bit off.

We know Joram, where he is (Hrzecal Bay), and what he's doing (honing a weapon and fretting). I would like a bit more information on why he's fretting and what Epikours was, and less flowery description. At least for the hook, until I really know what's going on.

[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited October 07, 2005).]


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