Another fantasy piece. This one has been submitted, awaiting a response, but I'm still interested in feedback, both on the 13 and the whole thing for anyone interested. About 6k words.

I know its probably not "hooky" enough, but I hope I at least managed some mood..

The garden was so beautiful at this time. At twilight. It had always been Naronin’s favorite time of day, the beginning at dawn, and the ending, at dusk. He often sat and mused on how alike they were, ending and beginning, both of them twilight.
His garden was small, and modest, set behind the cottage he had assumed ownership of, which itself sat on the edge of a vast and ancient forest. Still, now in the fading light of dusk, it was beautiful to him, and he sat just outside the kitchen door, and gazed over the garden, letting the serenity and quiet of the scene enfold him.
After a moment he stood, and stretching himself, went back inside. Naronin, some times called Naronin, Who Walks in The Twilight, was a relatively average-seeming man.

I think you do well enough here in creating a mood though I think this 13 could do with a fair amount of trimming, and my mind was reeling after that first paragraph which could be a lot clearer.

The garden was so beautiful at this time. At twilight. Could be cut down to "The garden was so beautiful at twilight."

It had always been Naronin’s favorite time of day, the beginning at dawn, and the ending, at dusk. He often sat and mused on how alike they were, ending and beginning, both of them twilight. I read this three or four times and still didn't understand it, so twilight begins at dawn and lasts until dusk? I always thought twilight begins once the sun has set, if its different in this world I think you need to make it clear at the beginning of this sentence so the reader doesn't have to pause to get the setting straight.

His garden was small, and modest, set behind the cottage he had assumed ownership of not sure you need the comma after small. Could be shortened to "The garden behind his cottage was small and modest..."

As it is, I think if you trim the prose you could set this nice quiet scene while still also getting more of a hook in the it, Good luck with it!

Your probably right about the comma, that can go.

The part about him assuming ownership of the cottage is there to help establish that he didn't build it, and that he hasnt necessarily been living there extremely long. I will have another look at the sentence though.

As for the first part...it's saying that a day begins and ends in twilight. "The begining, at dawn, and the end, at dusk" is refering to the day, not the twilight...but, I will go over it again and see if theres any way to do it differently...and see if anyone else finds it confusing.

For me your story begins not with the description of the cottage, or why this Twilight is so important, but with your character, Naronin.

Dawn and Dusk are both refered to as periods of twilight also. Its used more often for the evening period, but is accurate for both.

For me your story begins not with the description of the cottage, or why this Twilight is so important, but with your character, Naronin.

I'd like to see you start with a hint of why he is so special.

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Well, I think the fact that he has a title is a bit of a hint. Naronin is a mage, and is currently going through a period of introspection, and not really using his abilities much (as the story begins anyway).

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There you go! I'd start with that, it is a bit more immediate then descriptive setting.

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The fact that the begining is perhaps a bit "dull" is somewhat intentional, maybe I should have elaborated further on that.

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With short storie's limited scope, I don't think it is to your benefit to start, 'dull.' You need to catch your reader within your first few lines...

Yes, it is. Two things about that though: Wouldnt many consider basically introducing the character and his status and profession right at the begining a bit cliche, or perhaps forced?

Also, the nature of the story isnt necessarily going for immediate.

With short storie's limited scope, I don't think it is to your benefit to start, 'dull.' You need to catch your reader within your first few lines...

True, but different people are caught by different things. The story has a certain progression, and the exciting parts simply arent at the begining.

To start a story, even someone like me who loves ambience in the words and vivid description, will not be hooked by pretty scenes alone. The situation the main character is in is the only way to make me care about what's going to happen next, to make us turn the page.

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I'm assuming it's unusual for the being he is to have a cottage, or you wouldn't start there. But we can't appreciate it until we know why. What is the story's plot going to be about?

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Mostly about him. But the fact that he is, at the begining of the story, living a very quiet and peaceful life is, to some extent, part of the plot.

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You can have clues about the mood embedded in the beginning of the storyline. I want to know who I'm going to be following in this story: start out with him in action, showing us what kind of person he is!

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Not to sound flip, but, thats exactly what I've done. The first bit really does sum up, to a large extent, the kind of person he is at that point.

Hmm...I am finding this all very interesting. I have read published short stories that dont start off super exicting...been drawn in by, and enjoyed them. But, so far I'm kind of feeling like the only one :-)

Now, its my understanding that its frowned upon to go too much into the plots of ones stories here...but I'll say this. Naronin is a wizard who is currently making minimal use of his abilities, he has retreated into a period of contemplation.

So, what sort of exciting thing then would anyone suggest my having him doing, to make this more "hooky?"

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And then when he savors the dusk it will be more vivid instead of skimmable.

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Well, chances are someone who skimmed this part of this story wouldnt end up liking it much anyway so...

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So, what sort of exciting thing then would anyone suggest my having him doing, to make this more "hooky?"

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You could start with whatever he's going to do after he goes back inside.

I could, for instance, remove the second mention of its being beautiful, and just throw in something as simple as him picking a few herbs for dinner (he cooks dinner over the course of the next few lines.)

Also,the "Naronin, known to some as Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight" breaks perspective and is kind of an info dump. Why would that come into Naronin's mind? It's out of place.

Also, people critiquing your piece are not trying to change your story or your characters: they're telling you the reasons they would have problems reading it; they're telling you why it's not yet great. Something artistically great isn't necessarily great as a whole. If we don't care enough or if the writing has too many flaws or is confusing, we will stop reading. And your point will get to nobody. Nobody will read your brilliant story.

Also, one thing about craft, which is what you're having trouble with, is beginning the story. Jeff M suggested some sort of action, which you incorporated. Now, may I suggest starting even later, at the point where there is a change? Conflict and exposition overlap.

I don't know what happens, but so far, this feels like some pastoral, and I would put it down. I want to start at the point where he's in the garden hoeing and a vampire comes from the ground or he's picking flowers and one speaks to him.

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That's not changing the story, Merlion

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Well...yea...it is. Removing one begining and replacing it with another is changing the story.

Some times thats ok, but usually I am looking to improve what is rather than change it.

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Yes, that's how a marketable story goes, but that doesn't make it bad.

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I understand the point of view, and apreciate it. However, first my foremost purpose, generally, is to improve the intrinsic quality of my stories, as themselves, whether it makes them more marketable or not. Second, and related, its not necessarily been my experience (from reading short fiction in magazines and anthologies) that only stories that begin right in the action are marketable. Different people have different tastes, and there are different types and speeds of stories.

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Better, but the last line is weak and tells rather than shows. From the previous few lines, the modest garden, the small cottage, we can tell that he seems average, so that line is not necessary.

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Yes, I think that line can just be dropped, and go right into the brief descreption of him that comes after it. Thanks for that.

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Also,the "Naronin, known to some as Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight" breaks perspective and is kind of an info dump. Why would that come into Naronin's mind? It's out of place.

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I do see what you mean, and especially depending on your taste and style it might jar a little. However, it isn't something he's thinking, its a statement made by the 3rd person omniscient narrator type. I also see it as a bit of a hook...if he's so ordinary, why would some people know him by a special title?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to convey that information more smoothly?

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Some times thats ok, but usually I am looking to improve what is rather than change it.

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This in interesting - how do you intend to improve what is without any actual change? Stephen was saying, in essence, that he was bored with your piece but could be interested if they story started somewhere else. Arguing with him doesn't make him less bored. The fact that he mentioned he was bored doesn't mean that you need to change the opening of your story, but it does mean that at least one reader was bored, and who do you think is more likely to be a critical and sceptical reader - us, or the editor who has this land on their desk? We give our opinions in the hopes of helping you improve your writing, thereby making that editor like your story, not to simply create more work for you. Take our opinions and do with them what you will.

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Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to convey that information more smoothly?

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Yes. Show it to us, rather than have the narrator tell it to us. (damn, I thought I wasn't going to say these words to you any more!) Maybe someone comes to visit Naronin and refers to him by that name and he kind of shrugs it off as an old title more befitting of a more accomplished man. This exchange would tell us much much more about Naronin's character in a much more natural and efficient way than strictly narration ever could.

Jayson Merryfield

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This in interesting - how do you intend to improve what is without any actual change? Stephen was saying, in essence, that he was bored with your piece but could be interested if they story started somewhere else. Arguing with him doesn't make him less bored. The fact that he mentioned he was bored doesn't mean that you need to change the opening of your story, but it does mean that at least one reader was bored, and who do you think is more likely to be a critical and sceptical reader - us, or the editor who has this land on their desk? We give our opinions in the hopes of helping you improve your writing, thereby making that editor like your story, not to simply create more work for you. Take our opinions and do with them what you will.

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Thats exactly what I'm doing. "What I will" do with them, is discuss them so I can actually understand and use them.

I'm not expressing what I mean very well apparently. I dont want to change the basic nature of the narrative. I dont want to erase whats there (Naronin in the garden, enjoying it and musing on the whole twilight thing), with something different (some sort of action scene or whatever.)

I'm interested in ideas as to how to make it more interesting (to those that don't find it so) while maintaining its basic nature. For some that won't be possible...but not everyone is interested in every story.

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Yes. Show it to us, rather than have the narrator tell it to us. (damn, I thought I wasn't going to say these words to you any more!) Maybe someone comes to visit Naronin and refers to him by that name and he kind of shrugs it off as an old title more befitting of a more accomplished man. This exchange would tell us much much more about Naronin's character in a much more natural and efficient way than strictly narration ever could.

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But what if narration is the only thing that fits the story? This is what I'm talking about...I'm not inclined to insert things that dont fit the story. And thats why I discuss comments instead of just looking at them...I can make better use of peoples comments by knowing whats behind them...and you can make better comments knowing more of whats going on and what I am trying to accomplish. And if you dont have the time or desire to do that, then you dont :-)

Your suggestion there for instance, is excellent but theres not really a way to fit it into the story, especially not at the begining.

I'm not sure I understand the issues with narration. I find people here speaking very negatively of things that I see frequently in printed fiction, and so its hard for me to understand the criticism...and so I ask.

Yes. Stick to one Viewpoint. In a novel you can have several VP Characters. Short stories are another kettle of fish.

You start the story in tight 3rd POV so don't go off into an omnicicient viewpoint suddenly.

It is permissable to start omniciently then tighten in, but the reverse will jar your readers out of the story. When your writing intrudes on the story the reader may put it down altogether.

Question: How important is it that you have him "titled" in this intro? Could you bring it into play further in without breaking viewpoint? Perhaps have someone mention the name and have him react (negatively?).

But in reality, you won't be with your readers, will you? You won't have the opportunity to explain yourself as they raise their eyebrows and wince (simultaneously) at your decision not to perfect craft.

A story of high "intrinsic quality" is one that does two things for me, the reader:

It has a take and it doesn't bore me. If it's lacking the former, I'll even read it, though it does mean it'll be a trashy romance or dry action piece. Taste and style have nothing to do with it, quite obviously, as you're receiving plenty of repeated criticism and still turning some of it down.

Also, adding in tidbits, old men coming up to him, etc., isn't changing the overall plot, but I do see where you're coming from. It's almost like you're throwing it in just for characterization: but that's okay, isn't it?

I watched Zach Braff's A Garden State the other day, and I recall in the opening scene, Braff walks to his cupboard, opens it up, and every shelf is lined with full, identical bottles of pills. And then he shuts it, taking nothing. Brilliant of Braff. It shows us so much about him: he's an overdiagnosed, depressed man, who is sick of his life and decides to change it. In the first scene, we see the beginnings of a changing man.

That scene was unnecessary to the plot, and it's likely that Braff didn't have that scene originally, but part of rewriting is not only line editing, but story editing.

Also, it's quite possible that I'm bolding random words.

How to make it more interesting? Contrary to what you might believe, I'm turned off by high action scenes. However, I feel you need to take the story somewhere. Move it forward. Give me something more than a repetitive, idealistic description of a man lingering in a garden. Even a hint of _something_, that he's expecting someone, that perhaps his vegetables weren't doing as well this year, anything to suggest change or conflict.

The other option I can think of is to make this Naronin character more interesting. Embed us even more in his character. Surely he's having some thoughts. Maybe he remembers a fallen comrade. Or helps or kills a struggling beetle--either action would show us more of his personality than simply telling us.

As for replying to the comments... the essence of your replies seem to boil down to this: this is my story, and this is what fits my story. Given that, it's hard to provide any helpful comments. None of us know what the story is, and yet your asking us to consider the story and using that as your primary defense. We can only provide our reactions--it's up to you to decide what to do with them. If you are confident this is the way you want to tell you story, and you feel you've read published work in a similar vein, then wait and see what editors say.

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Yes. Stick to one Viewpoint. In a novel you can have several VP Characters. Short stories are another kettle of fish.

You start the story in tight 3rd POV so don't go off into an omnicicient viewpoint suddenly.

It is permissable to start omniciently then tighten in, but the reverse will jar your readers out of the story. When your writing intrudes on the story the reader may put it down altogether.

Question: How important is it that you have him "titled" in this intro? Could you bring it into play further in without breaking viewpoint? Perhaps have someone mention the name and have him react (negatively?).

You are probably sick to death of his initials, but OSC has an excellent book on POV- read it.

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Ahh ok. I didn't realize I was shifting point of view.

The "he was an average-seeming man" line is just going to be cut entirely...but the part with his title is a POV shift also?

Its not absolutely necessary to have it mentioned in the first 13, but it should be in somewhere. Theres only one spot where I could really insert it as dialogue, and I'm not sure it would work.

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But in reality, you won't be with your readers, will you?

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Nope, but I can communciate with you, and use that communication to help perfect the work for those I wont be able to talk to.

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Also, adding in tidbits, old men coming up to him, etc., isn't changing the overall plot, but I do see where you're coming from. It's almost like you're throwing it in just for characterization: but that's okay, isn't it?

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Indeed, as long as its characterization that fits the character.

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Also, it's quite possible that I'm bolding random words.

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Yes, seemingly. But thats ok, a little random bolding never hurt anyone. :-)

Thank you for commenting, and not skewering me with a giant herring!

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The biggest problem I have with this is that it's repetitive--that in itself makes for a boring read. It doesn't seem to go anywhere; nor does it suggest any potential to me. His title, in my opinion, is not enough. Maybe he's only called that because he walks around at dusk and dawn. Also, as a title, it's a bit cheesy. That, obviously, is a matter of taste--this feels like high fantasy, a genre I've become jaded to.

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You're probably right about it being a little reptitive..at some point, I'll see what I can do about that....hmm although, i think the new version is a bit better about that.

Some times, I feel like once one has finished a story, one could go back and see an almost infinite number of other ways to begin it, knowing what you know now...but, how to choose if its needed, and if so which one? Occupational hazard I suppose.

There are two reasons why he's called that, and you guessed one of them. Should any ideas for a better twilight-title come to you, let me know...I'm not averse to changing it, as long as it involves Twilight.

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Also, how does one edit the topic of the first post of a thread?

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Do you mean change the name/title of the topic?

MY TAKE:
Naronin walked into the garden just as twilight fell over the surrounding forest. He breathed the evening air deeply, and then strolled down the rows picking vegetables and herbs for his evening meal.

He paused to let the peace of it wash over him. Dawn and dusk had always been his favorite time; once he had even been known by the mage-name, Naronin[] Who Walks in Twilight. He bent to dig up one more onion, before returning to the cottage he had [] taken for his home.

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Naronin walked into the garden just as twilight was falling over the land. He breathed [the evening air<--[Redundnat.] deeply, and then walked about the garden, picking vegetables and herbs for his evening meal<--[Cool insight into the character's lifestyle].
As he finished, he stood and looked out over the garden<--[Nothing happening. Pace killer.]. It was so beautiful at twilight; he let the peace of it wash over him.<--Redundant.] It had always been his favorite time, [the beginning of the day<--[The same as]-->at dawn], and [its ending<--[Again, redundant.]-->at dusk]. So much so, that once he had once been known by the mage-name, Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight<--[Cool fact, but by now I'm sick or reading "twilight", and wondering if anything is going to happen.]. He often mused upon the fact that each day began and ended in the same way-in [twilight<--Again.].
He turned from the garden, and went back into the cottage he had found deserted less than a year ago, and taken for his home.

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You mention "twilight" or evening/dawn-dusk 9 times in thirteen lines (8 sentences). That's distracting. There are a couple of interesting tidbits, but they are smothered in redundancy. IMHO you could concentrate on the story's progression, and condense this to a couple of sentences:

At sunset, Naronin went to the garden to pick vegetables for his evening meal. His name--his mage-name--meant He Who Walks at Twilight, for that was his favorite time. His back creaked as he pulled a head of lettuce free and added it to his armful of tomatoes, onions, cucumbers, carrots and radishes. He hustled toward the abandoned cottage which he had adopted. [Extrapolating here:] The sky grew dark, and there were monsterous things which roamed the night--things more powerful than his simple wards. Inside with the shudders closed tight, by candlelight, mayhap he could break the cypher and translate the tome he'd stolen from his master, The Book of Darkness. If he could just break the code, it could cure the monsters-who-were-once-people.

Especially in a short story, you have to grab the editor's attention in the first page (properly formatted, 13 lines). You have to let him/her know what kind of story it is (dark fantasy, quest, battle, character-changing, what type of conflict/problem needs resolved.), what genre, where it's located (inside, outside, era) and a little about who your protagonist is. (Or, an easier explanation: Who he is and what he is doing there.)

Hope this helps. Good Luck with the story.