He was standing in a dry west wind outside McHugh's Mercantile. I first took him for just another wanderer: ragged clothes caked in silver gray dust; that vacant, thousand yard stare; eyes bleached pale from the brittle rays of a white hot sun bounced off too many miles of alien hardpan. Fifteen years before, we'd been scientifically mated, selected for hardiness and intellect. I'd provided the hardiness part of the equation. He was straight out of MIT and crazy smart, emphasis on the crazy. I figured he'd died a long time ago.

We'd both been volunteers in that desperate, last ditch Project Panspermia, instigated by those arriving-just-in-the-nick-of-time off-world "friends." I'd been born into a commune just outside of Asheville NC. My parents had been waiting for the aliens for as long as I could remember.

Then I ran into the brick wall of Panspermia.

It ranks right up there with Unobtanium.

I enjoyed this enough that hitting that brick wall hurt.

-Grizzled wanderer who lives exposed to elements is the intellect
-Person who describes said wanderer and past history to him with detached, scientific observations is the brawn.

That disconnect did cause me to re-read the opening a few times. But, as I said, it could be interesting if it's exploited (in which case, I suggest throwing the reader a bone in the opening and saying "I'd thought I'd provided the hardiness...")

We'd both been volunteers in that desperate, last ditch Project Panspermia, instigated by those arriving-just-in-the-nick-of-time off-world "friends." I'd been born into a commune just outside of Asheville NC. My parents had been waiting for the aliens for as long as I could remember.

I quite liked the first few lines:

He was standing in a dry west wind outside McHugh's Mercantile. I first took him for just another wanderer: ragged clothes caked in silver gray dust; that vacant, thousand yard stare; eyes bleached pale from the brittle [brittle?] rays of a white hot sun bounced off too many miles of alien hardpan.

The next part of the first paragraph is retrospective info dump, but it's small and relevant - still okay.

Then, I expected you to return to present, having given us a little of the past, to maintain some contact (keep a rhythm) with the present, but instead you continued with retrospective info-dumping. It joins up with the bit of info-dumping in the first paragraph to make a largish chunk in the 1st 13.

Again the writing is competent (in my opinion), but have you considered writing this and eliminating the info dumps altogether? The question you need to ask, I think, is does the reader need to know this now? I was told once to introduce information at point readers need to know it and when it feels natural with regards the story.

I wanted there to be a:

"Hi, Josh," I glanced at his rags. "I thought you'd died ages ago..."

after the first paragraph [disclaimer--not what I have written, but something similar, something actually happening) NOT other stuff that rapidly veers away from the mysterious guy in question and talks about aliens who aren't present in the scene.

Question: who is HE. It feels to me like withholding not to mention HIS name when you (the POV) quite obviously know it.

quote:

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Cram, cram, cram.

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And then skadder said

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The question you need to ask, I think, is does the reader need to know this now?

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Listen to skadder, please.

I am getting the impression that you think everything has to be in the first 13 lines, and that isn't the point at all.

Have you read the topics in the Please Read Here First area, especially the ones that talk about the 13 lines?

If you haven't read all of those topics (they're quite short, I promise), please do so as soon as possible, and then listen to skadder on infodumps.

I went in search of material on the first thirteen under the Please Read Here First area, but couldn't find anything. I will be glad to read the information if you can tell me under which heading it might be located.

However, now that you mention it, I figure I'm not the only one here who could benefit from some actual instruction from the actual experts who know how we are actually supposed to compose a first thirteen. I surely haven't read anything remotely consistent. I'm not talking about just critiques of my own stuff either.

The whole idea seems to be an exercise in futility. I can't imagine a first thirteen that anyone might come up with that wouldn't be attacked. Especially since the first thirteen of the stories that are actually published in The InterGalactic Medicine Show don't fit any pattern I can discern, and wouldn't even pass given any of the criteria presented on this board. While the writing is good, some are actually snooze inducing. In one—I will repeat, since you apparently haven't read anything else I have written here, or the critiques offered—the main character is actually snoozing. If it's a do as I say and not as I do situation, it would be nice to know what the "do as I say" really says.

Here's an idea. If Mr. Card has a few minutes one day, why not ask if he would anonymously post a really good example of a fantastic first thirteen. See how well it is received. Personally, I'd like to see what one looks like.

I don't understand your point.

We are an opinionated bunch who would probably have some suggestions for Shakespeare if he was alive to post a first thirteen. Shrug

All we give is our honest opinions. If you agree with what is said, change it. If you don't, then ignore it.

But the real value in the first thirteen (or critiques in general) comes from critiquing others' posts. You see what works and what doesn't FOR YOU.

I spent months here just reading the first thirteens, examining the prose and the introduction of characters, scene, speculative elements, etc. I would read all of the crits too, and see if I agreed with them or not, then try to determine why. My own writing improved tremendously for it.

I suggest giving it a try. But remember the only opinion that really matters is your own.

1. Even if you write the 'perfect' intro you will still get some people who don't like it. Not everyone likes Harry Potter or Stephen King or Dan Brown.

2. There isn't a formula. You can write an intro however you want; if it works you will know because the feedback will reflect that. That said there are certain things people seem to agree on (at this point in history...) but even those are flexible. Examples are:

-Avoid info-dumps.

-Don't introduce something that requires an explanation (and the POV character would know) and then withhold that from the reader.

-Avoid adverbs

--etc, etc.

3. If you want to see a first 13 that was well received, you could spend some time looking through the older ones here. There are plenty of well-recieved intros, but you will need to hunt a bit to find them.

4. Critiquers come from the full range of experience--from novices (started yesterday) to pro-published. As mentioned, a writer's writing improves by critiquing others. Therefore you will find a number of possibly contradictory critiques when you post. As the author you have to separate out the stuff that helps you from the stuff that doesn't.

5. You use the word 'attacked'. It's possible you may have the wrong mindset with regards the process. When people point out things they think you have done wrong with your intro, they are trying to help you. THIS IS A GOOD THING! By pointing out errors (as they perceive them), they are giving you the benefit of their eyes (for free!). You may (if you aren't feeling defensive) see what they mean and learn something (you may of course disagree). If you have only ever had comments from friends and family prior to posting here, it will be a bit of a shock.

6. The posting/critiquing process has helped many people improve their writing, taking novices to the pro-published levels. It doesn't help everyone--some people are unable to tolerate the critiquing process and take it personally and drop out. If they ever get a novel published, they should be beware; reviews of novels can be very caustic and personal.

These are the topics in the Please Read Here First area:

if you're registered, you agreed to this

How do you log in once you're registered?

An attempt to explain how this forum is moderated

Making use of the Fragments and Feedback area

Responding to feedback

Why only 13 lines?

How to tell if it's exactly 13 lines

Once you have read all of them, I will be happy to talk to you.

And, yes, I read over every post that goes up here on the Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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He was standing in a dry west wind outside McHugh's Mercantile.(ok, we're describing a stranger) I first took him for just another wanderer: ragged clothes caked in silver gray dust; that vacant, thousand yard stare; eyes bleached pale from the brittle rays of a white hot sun bounced off too many miles of alien hardpan. Fifteen years before, we'd been scientifically mated

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At this point I was confused. Was she talking about someone else? Or a whole colony of people had this done? I back-tracked to see if I'd missed something, but I hadn't. I wasn't sure she had been mated to the wanderer until "I figured he'd died a long time ago."

Tchernabyelo, thank you for your unique insights. I will keep them close as I sort out my next steps.

MAP, I am happy that your writing has improved due to your participation with the group; I just don’t have that kind of time.

Look: As one who has his own issues with the reception a first 13 gets around here, I'm gonna do a not-so-nice thing, and say, don't let the door hit you on the way out, Welsh Hammer.

Here's what gets me about Welsh Hammer: "...I just don't have that kind of time."

Time to be a better writer? Time to post a first 13 that isn't even part of a story, but an "experiment" to see how we'd react? Time to interact with others on this site? You poked a stick in here, Welsh Hammer, and then ran.

Honestly, we could use with a few more stick poking around here*, but don't get sullen and walk away when the reaction isn't what you'd want it to be.

*Within reason, of course. And by "reason", I mean whatever KDW says. And by whatever KDW says, I mean whatever KDW says.

I am a very recent member here so please feel free to accept or disregard my comments as you see fit.

I'm wondering exactly what you were expecting from this online writers workshop?

Before joining this workshop I took a lot of time browsing/looking through the boards to see what kind of comments the critiquers made. In all fairness I haven't posted a first 13 myself but I have taken the advice that I have seen on many posts: critiquing others' writing is the best way to improve my own writing. So far I have yet to see you offer any positive or negative feedback on anyone elses work. You have posted several first 13's of your own and many people have responded with their honest opinions. Again this is despite the fact that you haven't offered your opinions on anyone elses writing.

I understand very clearly the point that you are making. How can 13 lines answer/address all of the comments and criticisms that the readers on here are making? From your previous comments I can see that you feel that unless someone writes in a certain formulaic manner their work will not be favourably accepted - i.e that this site is biased towards a certain style.

I'm sure everyone on here knows that 13 lines cannot answer all of the questions that they are asking. The point of only posting 13 lines is to keep your manuscript publishable! You have never once offered to send your manuscript via email to others to see if their questions are answered shortly after.

Again, I return to my original question - what did you expect from this group? "wow great 13 lines. Perfect. Absolutely publishable right away!!!" The point of this exericise is to hear all the negative comments and decide whether they are valid or not.
I think it is really positive that people are asking questions about your manuscript. It's better than hearing "I wouldn't want to read on as it is right now" or "It didn't hold my interest."

One thing I've learned in the short time that I've been submitting for publication is that you have to develop a thick skin. If you want gold stars and stickers on your story let your mom read it -if you can't take what the general reading audience has to say then you're not at the point where you're ready to share your work.

It's a little like failing to learn to drive because you don't like the driving instructor telling to slow down.

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I just don’t have that kind of time.

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Then I very much doubt you'll make it as a writer.

Contrary to a fairly widespread belief (mostly among those who have never actually tried to write a novel, just "have a great idea" or "would love to write a novel one day"), writing is an incredibly time-consuming business if you want to actually get paid for doing it.

If you either can't make the time, or feel you don't NEED to make the time (which is the impression I get), then you are definitely better off not taking up the time, freely offerred, of others.

This forum doesn't work for everyone, but I know it's helped me, and I know it's helped others. But I guess some people don't think they need help - you definitely give the impression that you were far more hoping of validation than of genuine, honest, opinion.