Slightly different version

Our teacher, old Arjiaf, gestured toward a large bowl of water on the table beside him. “Come up here please, Kyefyn. I want to see your progress with the water-shaping spell.”
With his white beard, bushy brows and sharp glance, Arjiaf fit his role as a Yellow Road scholar-wizard to a tee. He stood at the head of our classroom, which was in fact just one of many book-filled rooms in the old mage’s house. The class consisted of two young men, Kyefyn and me, one-half of Oryal’s magically aware population.
Kyefyn stood up and I watched him fixedly as he walked to the bowl of water. He was tall, with a mop of wild sandy hair and, of course, bright blue eyes. The most beautiful person alive, if you asked me. No, I take that back. If you asked me, I wouldn’t say that.

A third version for consideration

Our teacher, old Arjaf, gestured toward a large bowl of water on the table beside him. “Come up here please, Kyefyn. I want to see your progress with the water-shaping spell.”
With his white beard, bushy brows and sharp glance, Arjiaf fit his role as the wise, elderly wizard to a tee. He stood at the head of our "classroom", which was in fact just one of many book-filled rooms in the old mage’s house. The "class" consisted of two young men, Kyefyn and me, one-half of Oryal’s magically aware population.
Kyefyn stood up and I watched him fixedly as he walked to the bowl of water. He was tall, with a mop of wild sandy hair and, of course, bright blue eyes. The most beautiful person alive, if you asked me. No, I take that back. If you asked me, I wouldn’t say that.

Version 4

Arjaf pointed toward a large bowl of water on the table beside him. “Come up here please, Kyefyn. I want to see your progress with the water-shaping spell.”
With his white beard, bushy brows and sharp glance, Arjaf looked every inch the wise and scholarly magic-teacher. He stood at the head of our "classroom", which was actually just one of the many book-filled rooms of the old mage's house. The "class" consisted of one-half of Oryal’s magically aware population: Kyefyn and me.
Kyefyn stood, and I watched him fixedly as he walked up to the bowl. Tall, with a mop of sandy hair and bright eyes as blue as his magic, he was the most beautiful person alive, if you asked me. No, I take that back. If you asked me, I wouldn’t say that.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited August 27, 2011).]

2. When you wrote that the classroom was "one of many book-filled rooms" do you need to mention that it is in a large house? Do we even need to know that the house is on the edge of town?

3. You're making me do math. Aside from the nameless protagonist, Kyefyn, and Arjiaf, there is one more magically aware person in Oryal. Is that significant?

4. Aside from a possibly gay protagonist, nothing here seems fresh, exciting, or intriguing. Standard wizard with two apprentices in class. I'm not grabbed by this, in fact, I'm wary. I don't think sexuality should be a gimmick. I'm not saying you're using it to be a gimmick (nor would I swear the protagonist is even gay) but I'm worried that it could be a gimmick.

Don’t assume anything. What’s the perfect picture of a wizard? Also, the phrase “perfect picture” is a cliche. Also, the phrase “wise old” is a cliche. Tidy up.

Don’t put class and classroom in quotes. We get it, they’re not usual places to have a class, but don’t remind us over and over again.

"Kyefyn and me,"

Kyefyn and I

"watched him fixedly"
Not a good choice of words. You watched him, that’s it.

"and, of course, bright blue eyes."
Why, “of course”. Is it important what color eyes and what color hair he has? These are your opening lines are they not? Stop boring us with details. You can fill holes later, right now, someone is reading your work at a bookstore, they don’t care about eye color.

"The most beautiful person alive, if you asked me. No, I take that back. If you asked me, I wouldn’t say that."
Actually pretty funny and clever. Where was this earlier on?

Keep writing, you're not bad.

EDIT on the eyes part: your'e probably thinking you need to say the eyes part because like the lead likes him, but the lead doens't like him for his eyes, that's what a cliche is. The lead likes him because, I don't know, the way his hand looks, or the way he starts conversations, or maybe something else. But not eyes, not hair. Right?

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EDIT on the eyes part: your'e probably thinking you need to say the eyes part because like the lead likes him, but the lead doens't like him for his eyes, that's what a cliche is. The lead likes him because, I don't know, the way his hand looks, or the way he starts conversations, or maybe something else. But not eyes, not hair. Right?

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Wrong. Kyefyn is a Blue Road mage. The wizards of this world often have, or when they take their first steps onto their Road, acquire some sort of related physical feature...for instance, Blue, Green, Grey and Purple mage's eye color generally matches their Road. The narrator knows this, so it's an "of course."

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Stop boring us with details.

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You mean you not us.

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You can fill holes later, right now, someone is reading your work at a bookstore, they don’t care about eye color.

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Perhaps. Perhaps not. But the character narrating the story definitely cares about it.

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Not a good choice of words.

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Why not?

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You watched him, that’s it.

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No, given that the character from whose perspective this first-person narrative is written is in love with the person in question, I don't think he just watches him.

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Don’t put class and classroom in quotes. We get it, they’re not usual places to have a class, but don’t remind us over and over again.

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One use of the technique on each of two different words is "over and over again?"

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Don’t assume anything. What’s the perfect picture of a wizard? Also, the phrase “perfect picture” is a cliche. Also, the phrase “wise old” is a cliche.

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"cliche" does not = "bad." Also, a little irony is good for your blood.

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Tidy up.

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What does this mean in the context of "cliches?"

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Kyefyn and I

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You realize that this is first-person narrative and that people don't always think and speak with 100% proper grammar, right? Or do you think I actually wrote it that way out of ignorance? Honestly curious about that.

I appreciate you reading my lines. However, I don't really appreciate the condescending tone or absolute orders on what to do. You offer up little or no constructive criticism, only your opinions generally without reason or suggestion of alternatives.

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Keep writing, you're not bad.

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Gee thanks. I will. Keep critting, maybe you'll learn how to write out something beyond a list of things you don't like.

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Why write that Arjiaf is the "perfect picture of a wizard" if you're going to explain what that is anyway?

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Irony. Lampshade-hanging. And because it's what the character narrating the story would think were he to describe his teacher.

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When you wrote that the classroom was "one of many book-filled rooms" do you need to mention that it is in a large house? Do we even need to know that the house is on the edge of town?

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Probably not, no. I like to set the scene at the begining of a story, usually, but I will admit this was a hard start (and is proving to be a somewhat hard-continuing) and that bit was probably a case of floundering for something. Good suggestion, thank you.

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You're making me do math. Aside from the nameless protagonist, Kyefyn, and Arjiaf, there is one more magically aware person in Oryal. Is that significant?

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I think it is. Why don't you read on and find out? :-) But, if it turns out I'm wrong and it doesn't end up mattering that line will probably get re-worked.

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Aside from a possibly gay protagonist, nothing here seems fresh, exciting, or intriguing. Standard wizard with two apprentices in class. I'm not grabbed by this

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I understand that. But, it's a matter of taste. I happen to adore "standard wizards" (and other types too), therefore I am going to write about them. Also, despite the lampshade hanging in the first line, I like to think that this world's magic system (wizards walk nine colored, spiritual Roads that each have different powers and philosophies) is at least somewhat original and interesting. But I realize some folks shy away from "standard" High Fantasy in any form...and I'm ok with that. That's why we have different genres and different publications.

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I don't think sexuality should be a gimmick. I'm not saying you're using it to be a gimmick (nor would I swear the protagonist is even gay) but I'm worried that it could be a gimmick.

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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "gimmick" here. I was reading the guidlines for Beneath Ceaseless skies the other day and they mention their fondness for characters who yearn for things and feel driven to attain them. So I wanted to create a character with multiple yearnings...in this case, romantic yearning for a person he is afraid to or doesn't think he can have, and yearning to find his way onto his particular Road as a wizard. I'm a gay man, and so for me the first part fell naturally into the mold of a male/male relationship.

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Having said all of that, I liked your description of Kyefyn

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I appreciate that. I know many frown on overt character description, but in the context of a first-person story with a strong romantic element, it would seem a bit odd to me for the character not to think about the details of his love-interest's appearance.

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and I really appreciated the last few lines and the characterization used there. The last few lines were so much richer to me than all the rest that it felt like you were just getting warmed up.

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Yeah, I basically was. I'm ok with the basic structure of the opening, but the first part will need a bit of polish.

I've removed my crit after reading your response above.

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To be honest, for me the biggest deal breaker is the odd names. I had to pronounce Keyfyn half a dozen times in my head before I finally gave up and read it to myself as Kevin.

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Hmm interesting...I've never really got that before. Do you really find them "odd" in the context of fantasy names?
I'm reading "The Name of the Wind" right now and he throws in a good deal of "real world" names along with fanciful ones and that always irritates me a bit...

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Why is classroom in quotes? Is the place actually called something else. If so then tell us, we're bright enough to take it

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No, it isn't. The narrating character is being ironic about the fact that it isn't a real classroom or a real school as such...it's just the town's one full blown wizard teaching the town's two magically aware youths. I figured that, especially in first person, the quotation marks would be a less wordy way to put this forth, and help establish the character's voice (he does get named before too long, but I welcome any suggestions on how to worm it in sooner.)

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As a hook it doesn't get me at all. Sorry.

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Don't be. It isn't meant to be a "hook", its meant to be the begining of a story. I realize this genre and the concept of a "standard" wizard isn't real in-vogue right now. Thanks for having a look.

A few quick things.

1. I will never attack another writer on personal grounds (unless I'm drunk).

2. Remember that the reader (in this case, me) is the most important person in the world. When a reader picks up a book, it becomes his book, not yours. If he doesn't like the book, he will stop reading. I am your lead character.

3. I want you to say the next three lines over and over again until they become fixed in your head.

"There is no such thing is as writing."

"There is no such thing is as writing."

"There is no such thing is as writing."

Keep repeating that to yourself, over and over again.

Writing is just re-writing. There is no such thing as "writing".

That being said,

Your rewrite was a huge improvement. Even though you didn't like my critique, you followed almost everything I said. Most importantly, you squashed those cliches. Cliches are your worst enemies (see, that's a cliche). They ruin good writing and make lazy authors. If you ever write something that's a cliche, remove it, and do a re-write.

[This message has been edited by theusernameiwanted (edited August 19, 2011).]

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I will never attack another writer on personal grounds (unless I'm drunk).

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That's great. But my thing is, first its not really good to "attack" at all. Second, you can be rude and essentially "personally attack" someone without aiming insults etc directly at them. I was raised that demanding, imperative voice/tone (do this, do that, etc) is somewhat rude. In my work experiences, even managers and supervisors don't demand, they request, and in the context of something like critiqueing that means, to me, things like "Perhaps you should", "consider trying" and things of that nature.

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Remember that the reader (in this case, me) is the most important person in the world. When a reader picks up a book, it becomes his book, not yours. If he doesn't like the book, he will stop reading. I am your lead character.

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I understand what your saying. However, first, in terms of trying to get published, it isn't really readers that matter, its editors and slush readers which is a subtle and sometimes unimportant difference, and can depend on a lot of difference things, but does somewhat deep-six the person in a bookstore analogy. Next, I'm not sure I entirely agree that its their book not mine. I am creating it. I love stories. I love to read/watch/listen to them and to create them. I create stories that I myself would enjoy and even more so, I do not create ones I wouldn't enjoy. And I'm not alone in the type of stories I enjoy. There are no "readers" as a single generality. People have different tastes in stories. Thats why there are 8,888 different genres and styles of stories and of publications. I have no interest in attempting to write things every single person is going to love, because its impossible, so I start by writing stuff I love and go from there.

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Writing is just re-writing. There is no such thing as "writing".

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I think you are probably using "re-write" slightly differently than me, but even given that, I disagree. Certainly editing/polishing/re-writing whatever is an important part of the proccess, but you have to start with something. And, it is part of my nature and my style to try and get as much of it they way I want it the first time as possible. I've also found that there is less and less polishing/editing/re-writing as one develops over time and it takes on gradually less, though never no, importance.

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Your rewrite was a huge improvement. Even though you didn't like my critique, you followed almost everything I said.

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I followed specifically exactly one thing that you said, removing the quotes, and you weren't the only one to mention that. I changed the line about the perfect picture of a wizard slightly and moved it to another part of the fragment. It's still mostly the same, but I realized it presented me an opportunity to reference my magic system in the initial lines...I also didn't like it being a single free-floating sentence. It still says and means largely the same thing.
However, my issue with your initial post wasn't with the things you said in and of themselves, whether I implement them or not. It's with how they were said, and with almost (mind I say almost) total lack of any actual suggestions, as opposed to commands.

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Most importantly, you squashed those cliches. Cliches are your worst enemies (see, that's a cliche). They ruin good writing and make lazy authors. If you ever write something that's a cliche, remove it, and do a re-write.

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I couldn't possibly disagree more, especially since you seem to feel near everything is a cliche. I happen to love cliches, conceptual and linguistical. Cliches become such for a reason. They become cliches because people relate to them and understand them immediately. Especially in the fantasy genre, which is all about archetypes and universal principles, cliches are unavoidable...and I don't really see why you'd want to. One of the few things that can make me really dislike something is when it is clearly trying to hard to avoid being "cliche." Now of course, innovation is great (although there is truth to the saying that there's nothing new under the sun) and repitition of anything can get tiring...at least for a while, but repitition and cliche aren't the same thing necessarily.

Again, I want to stress I have absolutely no problem with people expressing their opinions...in fact, I thank you for being willing to partcipate in discussion of such, which is really what I prefer to feedback-in-a-vacuum. All I ask is that people express their opinions as opinions and do so in a courteous and helpful manner, and show respect for the fact that other's opinions and tastes are just as valid.

–William Zinsser, On Writing Well, p. 33

If a writer lives in blissful ignorance that clichés are the kiss of death, if in the final analysis he leaves no stone unturned to use them, we can infer that he lacks an instinct for what gives lan- guage its freshness. Faced with a choice between the novel and the banal, he goes unerringly for the banal. His voice is the voice of a hack."

p. 182

I suggest you read that book, but that's up to you, just a suggestion.

EDIT: http://www.amazon.ca/Writing-Well-30th-Anniversary/dp/0060891548

[This message has been edited by theusernameiwanted (edited August 19, 2011).]

[This message has been edited by theusernameiwanted (edited August 19, 2011).]

1--accusing someone of being rude can be every bit as rude as being rude

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You must fight [clichés] or you’ll sound like every hack. You’ll never make your mark as a writer unless you develop a respect for words and a curiosity about their shades of meaning that is almost obsessive. The English language is rich in strong and supple words. Take the time to root around and find the ones you want.

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The two aren't mutually exclusive. The funny thing...which of course you have no way of knowing...is that I've received just as much criticism for using words, phrases, styles and idioms that are too unusual or esoteric or "purple" or verbose or wordy etc etc as I have for using "cliches." Probably more, actually, but at least equal. When I say I love cliches, that doesn't mean that's all I use. For me, respect archetypal figures, character types, concepts and word-usages is also a part of the respect for the language you speak of, and the idea that anything that is "cliche" must be rooted out and destroyed is a DISrespect. It doesn't have to be one or the other...you can, in fact use both.
And that's not even getting into the issue of, how do we decide what is or isn't a cliche? According to who?

I also tend to dislike any absolutes...any idea that there is a thing that you must, always, ever or never. Its nonsensical, especially in speculative fiction writing.

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Read that book and the re-read that book, and read it every week until you have it memorized.

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"I suggest you read that book, but that's up to you, just a suggestion."

So far, the title and both of the quotes from the book you mention are complete and total turn-offs to me...the guy seems to be very much in love with his own opinions and he's sounding a number of notes to which I am absolutely opposed to...besides the cliche thing, the very use of the word and sentiment "hack", the fact that he speaks in absolutes and facts about a subjective that is inherently subjective, the phrase "you'll never make your mark as a writer unless..." (it doesn't even matter to me what comes after the unless.) And on and on. That being said, when my "reading schedule" so to speak is a bit more open...I may just take a look. I'm an optimist so I can hope maybe there's something in there besides elitism and ego.

Rules are means to an end and given that their are guides to giving feedback (some written by well-established authors) just as their are guides to writing fiction, if people choose to partcipate in critqueing of critiqueing, and discussing critique method is that a problem?

But at this point as I say we seem to have got well past that and moved into semi-congenial, very interesting and somewhat constructive discussion and I value discussion more than I do any single set of comments on a set of lines.

And, I accept your apology and understand now that you didn't mean to be offensive...although it is a little hard for me to understand that you wouldn't expect someone to potential find that first post, especially in this body-languegeless medium, a bit off-putting or annoying. You can perform "harsh" criticism without a harsh or condescending tone or the use of imperative voice.

Please don't take it as offense if I use direct language. It's the way I've been taught. Avoid frivolous words. Avoid clutter. Just get to the point. Instead of saying "try to clean up your language", I say "clean up". One, because I'm at work, and two, because I just want to get the point across. I'm used to dealing with people who aren't so easily taken aback by this, because all my friends to this too, but again, I'll keep my tone in check in the future. Good luck with your writing, I do hope you do well.

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Yea, cliches are an important topic either way, so at least we got around to discussing those. They're cliches because they're true, so I can understand why you would like to use them. I say, avoid them like the plague (he, he)

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You seem to be talking mostly about "cliche" phrases and the like (I'm used to seeing the term used mostly for concepts) but I have to wonder...say your describing something and the best, most accurate way to word and convey what's in your mind is something someone might consider a "cliche", would you still avoid it? Likewise, people speak and think largely in the things that you, as I understand it classify as "cliches" so it seems to me that to truly avoid all of them at all times might interfere a bit with realism, especially in dialogue.
I just have a hard time with the idea that any tool in writing should always be avoided and never be used...and since some "experts" say it about your "cliches", some about "ly" words, some about "ing" words, I sometimes wonder what we'd be left with if we all followed all of this advice.

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Please don't take it as offense if I use direct language. It's the way I've been taught. Avoid frivolous words. Avoid clutter. Just get to the point. Instead of saying "try to clean up your language", I say "clean up". One, because I'm at work, and two, because I just want to get the point across. I'm used to dealing with people who aren't so easily taken aback by this, because all my friends to this too,

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Is this true even in social situations? You and your friends put forth all requests or suggestions as imperative demands? "Pass the salt" becomes "Give me the salt" etc? I'm not being glib, I'm honestly curious...how people communicate is, obviously, a matter of importance to me.
Also, I understand what you say about getting to the point (and I will admit that I have had people tell me, in person and online, that I tend toward what they consider over-long explanations of things) but my thing is sometimes the way you word something is just semantics...but sometimes, it changes the "point" of what your saying. "Do this" is not the same "point" as "consider this."
There's lots of situations where speed and brevity are key and where direction must be given toward objective goals. Building a boat, repairing a car. An improperly built boat will sink, and a poorly built car will crash. But stories are built to achieve subjective goals...entertainment usually foremost among them. So one person's leaky dingy becomes another person's yacht...the objectivity and absolutes tend to go out of the picture.

And thanks again for having this discussion...I'm sorry that I went overboard, even for me, in the initial post...lack of tea will do that too me...and I'm glad that I was mistaken in my assumptions and things have evolved into a stimulating discussion instead of a fight.

Cliches have their place precisely because they are comfortable--particularly if you're poking at them with a bit of irony or humor.

I do have to agree that the names so far in this one are more tongue-twisty than your usual. But that's minor. Names are the easiest things in the world to fix.

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Actually, "Kyefyn and me" is fine, because it is connected to "of," making it the object. Using "Kyefyn and I" would be an overcorrection ingrained in us by our parents and teachers.

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Thanks for the info. My knowledge of the mechanics of grammar is admitedly not huge...I tend to go by what sounds right. However in this case, with a 1st person situation, I'd use it even if it wasn't correct, since it fits the voice of the character.

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While I have, have read, and enjoyed two of Zinsser's books, it's worth remembering that he was primarily a journalist, not a novelist. That does make a difference.

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Quite a large difference, yes. You know me better than most...would you say my guess is correct that I'd probably wind up wanting to jump through the page and beat him to death with the entrails of a Displacer Beast?

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I do have to agree that the names so far in this one are more tongue-twisty than your usual. But that's minor. Names are the easiest things in the world to fix.

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I think I've been overthinking my names of late. You wouldn't believe how long it took me to come up with "Ryophir" for the novel. "Arjiaf" is a total throwaway, but I like Kyefyn pretty well...is it the y's, do you think?

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Most important, I'm liking the voice in this piece. Keep it up. You haven't done much in first person that I recall.

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You've seen two. I've only ever written one other. I figured I'd better, since I'm aiming at BCS...I've read probably 8 or 10 stories from there and I think maybe one of them was anything other than first person. Their big on head-penetration, as you know. And thank you, voice is always very important to me. Hopefully I will be able to keep it up.

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I've had some trouble figuring out what I liked better about the second version. The introduction of the "Yellow Road" bit marks this as something other than the typical wizard and student story. Knowing about your Road motif, I had dismissed this as just another Road story. My familiarity blinded me to the uniqueness of your story. Despite the earlier implication, I enjoy traditional fantasy stories IF they still have something that I haven't seen before. Only you have your roads.

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Well the funny thing is, the story isn't really a wizard student story, as such. I start it with part of a day of their training/schooling because it gives me a chance to show a variety of important things, but the story is mainly about the relationship between the two young men (the narrator, Eroseph, and Kyefyn) and Ero's attempts to properly walk his own Road.

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On another note, does Kyefyn sound kinda like Kevin? It does in my head. I really don't see any trouble with your names. As a teacher, I see a BUNCH of names and spellings so maybe my name sensitivity is dull.

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I concepted it as Ky-eh-fin, but I had also considered Kyfyn, would would just be "Ky-fin" and does sound much like Kevin. And even in its present state, you could say it in your mind as Ky-fin and you wouldn't be "wrong." I try to make sure a reader can find some reasonble-sounding pronounciation of my names regardless. Even in the real world, names can be tricky since they often break the rules used for other words. I try to stick to real-world English phonetic letter values, but of course, a reader doesn't know that...

Interesting trick KDW...my mind spasmed slightly on the first reading, but it definitely works.

The line "No, I take that back. If you asked me, I wouldn’t say that." really worked for me. Great voice, great information about the character. Skillfully done.

I suggest introducing the road aspect of the story away from the first thirteen. On the second version you mention the system of magic, which makes me speculate about that, and I miss a connection to the characters. I also prefer the first version, because of the words in quotes. It makes the voice read more sarcastic to me, which is just enough to be appealing. Without the quotes it feels a little dry, like we don't get the POV characters attitude about the classroom.

I'll send it along once it's done. Its running longer than I want it to, but such is the way of things.

Edit: I've posted a slightly altered, third version of the opening...I changed the teacher's name slightly, put the quotes back and used a different wording for his "role."

-Show instead of tell (for example instead of referring to Arjaf as old, maybe mention his feeble hand gestures towards the bowl).
-Avoid clichés unless you are writing a parody. Otherwise they are not funny.
-I’m guessing you will have numerous spells in your book, and in that case you should develop names for your spells. “Water-shaping spell” seems bland, but that’s just my opinion.
-If possible, avoid listing what the characters look like (and especially on the first page!). Instead reveal their features slowly with showing sentences.

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I like it so far. The voice and style are effective. I’ve listed some suggestions for you to consider. Please don't take them too personally, I am trying to help

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Thanks for reading...I don't take your comments personally, due to your polite manner and amazing ability to put forth your opinions as opinions. I do want to respond to your comments because I see a chance to communicate some things that I've learned during my "writers journey" so to speak. I hope that that won't sound condescending or patronizing, because it isn't meant to be. I just like to share the things I've learned.

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Show instead of tell (for example instead of referring to Arjaf as old, maybe mention his feeble hand gestures towards the bowl).

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In my opinion and experience, "show don't tell" is the most overused and least useful bit of shorthand "advice" writers get subjected too. It doesn't really convey much, because everybody uses their own definitions of what "showing" is and what "telling" is. But any way they get defined in the end they boil down to two slightly different modes of writer...and neither is superior to the other. "Showing" is not better than "telling". Virtually all stories contain plenty of both. When and how to use which mode is mainly a choice of style and taste, and can be modified by many other factors. In the case of this line, just as an example...Arjaf is a minor character in the story. He doesn't really warrant time and word count spent "showing" a whole lot of his details. Additionally, this is first person, so its all the voice of the character...in this case, the character is commenting on Arjaf just as he would in his own mind.

Also...old and feeble don't always equate...you can be one and not be the other. Sometimes some things, in some circumstances, just need to be stated, for the sake of clarity.

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Avoid clichés unless you are writing a parody. Otherwise they are not funny.

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In my mind, there are two types of cliches...textual ones, phrases and the like, and those of concept...character, plot etc. "Cliches" of phrasing and the like, which seem to be mainly the thing here, can definitely get tiresome and reptitive if overused. However, most people tend to think and speak largely in these sorts of "cliches" so I feel stripping them entirely is a bit unrealistic. They also become cliches for a reason...they are in many cases clear ways of conveying something.

Conceptual cliches...plots, character types etc are more or less impossible to get away from. Most characters fit into one or more archetypes, and only so many plots exist. Fantasy, especially, is all about archetypes.

It's also possible to use "cliches" in an ironic or self-referential way that is not meant to be funny or parodic. Art grows more self-referential with each passing day, it seems to me.

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I’m guessing you will have numerous spells in your book, and in that case you should develop names for your spells. “Water-shaping spell” seems bland, but that’s just my opinion.

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First, thanks for having the courtesy and good sense to clearly state your opinion as such. It's, apparently, a pretty rare but extremely fantastic skill to have.
This comment is interesting because I realized in years of writing and critiqueing this has never actually come up for me. What sort of a name would you suggest? Its been my experience that in most fantasy, spells are usually not specifically named...this method, refering to them simply by what they do, is in my experience most common. I have read a good few things with a smattering of specifically named spells, but in my experience, the only thing I can think of where all spells are named is in Dungeons and Dragons and other RPGs. I actually wrote DND material before I started writing fiction, so I have named quite a lot of spells...maybe I'm burned out. Also, though I could be wrong, I think applying names to basic spells would, in the speculative-fiction-writing world, often invite unfavorable references to DND etc...but, I'm interested to hear your further thoughts.

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If possible, avoid listing what the characters look like (and especially on the first page!). Instead reveal their features slowly with showing sentences.

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This is mostly a matter of taste, in the end...how much character description people like varies a good deal. That being said, its certainly true that bunching up too much of anything in a small word-space can feel cramped and unnatural. Typically I put forth character description in a manner similar to what you describe...a bit here, a bit there. Although I have to say, I don't think you can really "show" a person's description...in the end, if their eyes are blue and you want the reader to know that, sooner or later you have to say/tell them that. I assume what you mean in this context is couching it in action or scene...basically, creating an excuse to slip the info in. That's great a lot of times, but there are reasons, sometimes, to use other techniques. In this case of these lines, again just as example, I did it this way partly because its first person and fits the characters voice, overall, and partly because it's first person and the POV character is in love with the subject and so his appearance is going to be of particular interest.

All of this is not an arguement against your critique nor some "defense" of my work. I assume (perhaps incorrectly, if so I apologize) that you apply a similar thinking or set of "rules" to your own work. I felt the need to respond because its been my experience that many writers, especially early on can end up hemming themselves in with a lot of "rules" and ideas about how writing should be. After writing for quite a while and engaging in much thought and discussion on various related subjects, its my opinion that there are no "rules" to be followed or broken, only concepts, techniques and tools to be learned and used. A hammer isn't superior to a screwdriver or vice versa, they are just used for different things. I feel to treat them as "rules" is to wind up straightjacketing yourself as a writer. It's my opinion that, in the end, all things should serve either your story, your voice, or both.

Thanks again for reading and commenting. Would you care to have a go at the rest?

Who is your target audience? Would they be familiar with DND? If so, then stick with your original naming system for spells. If not, then go ahead and experiment with different names. You could try using different languages as a start- Ægoa (Nigerian for water). Instead of telling readers it’s a water-shaping spell, you could describe Kyefyn shaping the water at the basin.

With the wizard cliché, you could probably get away without mentioning anything about Arjiaf’s appearance at all as long as you refer to him as an old wizard. Readers will automatically assume he has a long white beard and bushy eyebrows.

I preferred the first. The only thing that tripped me up was

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He was tall, with a mop of wild sandy hair and, of course, bright blue eyes.

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It has that passive feel, using the term "was". That draws attention to the lack of action happening here, which I can sometimes take as a cue to start skimming.

But worse, it taps into the appalling realm of beginner literature that tries to push the physical appearance on the reader each time one meets a new character. Given that you'd already described the teacher in detail, this sentence seemed to do more towards categorizing your writing into that group than establishing the character. It was almost - almost - vindicated by the lines that follow, but it had already received an eyeroll, so that was too late. (I did like that twist at the end of the paragraph, though.)

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It seems as though we have very different writing styles and are probably catering to different audiences. Who is your target audience?

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Well, I use a variety of different styles. I write in multiple genres (mostly high fantasy, modern-setting fantasy and stuff I suppose would be labeled horror for marketing purposes) and even within those...it just depends on the story. Although I realize its terribly pretentious to say it this way, the best way to put it would be to say I have a writing philosophy. I don't see it as a job that you perform either correctly or incorrectly to produce a product that either works or doesn't. There isn't, in my estimation, a right or wrong way to do it; there is only each storyteller, and each stories, way of doing it.

Likewise I generally don't cater to a specific audience. I have an idea for a story, and I try to write it into the closest version of what is in my head that I can and then I submit it to every publication whose submission guidlines it meets.

That being said, this particular story actually is aimed at a specific market, a magazine called Beneath Ceaseless Skies that puts out what they call "literary adventure fantasy." In particular, this story was spawned from the mention in their guidlines of a special affection for characters who yearn for things and strive to achieve them.
I would also mention that, with short fiction especially, even if you do choose to try and target a piece of fiction, it isn't really at an "audience"...it's at one or two specific people, the editor(s) of a particular publication. It is they, not a wider group of readers, who decide what gets published and what doesnt, based in my opinion mostly on their own taste and personal vision of their publication.

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Would they be familiar with DND? If so, then stick with your original naming system for spells. If not, then go ahead and experiment with different names. You could try using different languages as a start- Ægoa (Nigerian for water). Instead of telling readers it’s a water-shaping spell, you could describe Kyefyn shaping the water at the basin.

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I don't really know what, if any, preferences in this area the editor and assistant editor of BCS have. None of the stories I've read on their so far involved a lot of Western style Art-magic. And none of the rejections (they basically always give comments with rejection) have mentioned any issues with my magic systems...its always all about POV penetration and character goals.

Either way though, this is a world I've been writing stories in for a year or two now...I'm not going to change the way they speak about spells in a single story set in the same world and culture. That being said, I'm working on a novel set in this world, and I do plan on exploring different regions and cultures and speaking of spells differently might be something interesting to incorporate. So, thanks for a potential idea there.

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I think we should remember that there is a difference between cliche and archetype. I think ME's wizard is based on the archetype, not a cliche.

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It all depends on how you're using "cliche." Typically, these days, its used as a pejorative. It's used to mean "this has been done before, this has been done to much, this is unoriginal" all with the implication of "so you shouldn't use it." From what I can tell, the word was originally used mostly for platitude type sayings that had been used a lot and often divorved from their original context, things like "it's always darkest before the dawn," "show, don't tell," or "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." Now it has come to a much broader meaning of something overused.

Technically, an archetype is the original of something and so I suppose a thing derived from an archetype is "archetypal." Most archetypal things are also cliches, in that they have been used a lot...but the negative implication of "cliche" is OVERused...and that is fundmentally a matter of taste and opinion...which is why I don't consider "cliche" or "unoriginal" to be particularly valid criticisms. They are valid opinions...if something is cliche, in a bad way, to you then it is...but that's for you, not everyone.

In this case yes, I consider the character to be one drawing off an archetype, and I consider the narrator's invocation of it to be an intentional recognition of the fact that the other character is, in essence, a living breathing "cliche."

It doesn't really hook me, but then I realise you aren't intending to, Merlion. I am engaged to some degree as the tone is fairly easy to read.

1. I would prefer to see his age demonstrated rather than told and in fact you later mention his white beard and that he is elderly so some of this feels redundant to me.

2. What sort of gesture. Did he incline his head or wave a hand? I prefer specifics regarding gestures.

3. I prefer people to put dialogue on a new line, unless the lead in tag is really short, i.e. Jack continued. "So where were you exactly at ten pm?"

4. I don't like the description of the wizard, or the voice used in the line describing the wizard. It feels a little cliche and cheesy.

5. I don't like quotation marks used in prose to signify anything other than speech. The tone of the writing should (and can) effectively convey this, i.e. our so-called classroom AND (6), Even our class only consisted of...

7. Is this how you are saying you are male? It feels odd for the narrator to refer to himself in these terms. It would seem more natural to say: The "class" consisted of Kyefyn and me, one-half of Oryal’s...

8. This suggests to me that Oryal's magical population is 4? Is that right? If the two boys are half of it...

9. Why 'of course'? It suggests to me you've told me before or all of Oryal's residents have such eyes, so it is to be expected.

I'm just pointing out the things that I spotted that I would change (which is the point of critting). If I have left out any IN MY OPINIONs or IT SUGGESTS TO MEs then please assume it was an oversight.

Your reticence to improve (my term and my perception) your writing, still surprises me. I read this thread and it's same old, same old. It always worries me that you don't hear the critique because it feels like criticism, and you don't hear the advice because it sounds like orders.

I realise you aren't interested in sales (pro) or winning competitions, and only want advice that fits your world view (with regard writing), so hope this helps...

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Your reticence to improve (my term and my perception) your writing, still surprises me. I read this thread and it's same old, same old. It always worries me that you don't hear the critique because it feels like criticism, and you don't hear the advice because it sounds like orders.

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If this were the case, why would I have posted two additional versions of the lines, altered based on various feedback? You, seemingly, assume that because I challenge things I am told, and/or because I explain the reasons why I do certain things, that I'm dismissing and refusing the suggestions. But again, I think actions (the taking and using of the ideas to create new versions of an opening in this case) show that that isn't true.

All that being said, I've already admitted that I went full tilt on that first post because I'd just got up and it basically just made me irritable. I usually start out a lot slower and save that level of...intensity...for when I've tried to talk causually to someone and they've continued to be unpleasant.

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I realise you aren't interested in sales (pro) or winning competitions

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Same old, same old. :-) And, again, not really, it seems to me, paying much attention to what I'm saying or doing. I've never said these things and in fact I have specifically told you personally that this isn't the case. Further, you said you read the thread...I repeatedly mention that this story was written specifically with Beneath Ceaseless Skies (an SFWA professional publication) in mind. So it makes it sound a lot like the idea I'm specifically uninterested in pro sales is an idea you got in your head ages ago and refuse to let go of. And, in my opinion, the reason for that is that you seem at least to see there as being one way to achieve that, and because I, in your perception, refuse to do the things you think are necessary to achieve that, I must not want to.

Now I have said I dislike competition and that's true. However, I have submitted work to contest-form publications that interested me and though I wasn't too concerned with the "winning a contest" aspect, I did wish to be accepted into the publication. I don't enter WOTF, but theres a lot of reasons for that, one of the biggest being that every scrap of info I have about it indicates they don't publish the kind of stories I write...and the kind they do take are not a kind I generally have a lot of interest in writing.

And, I have said that I reject the idea that I feel some people have, that all professional editors want exactly the same thing...all you have to do is read a story or two from 3 or 4 different pro mags to see that that isn't true.

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and only want advice that fits your world view (with regard writing),

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You're almost right. I only use advice that fits what I am trying to do with a particular story.

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I would prefer to see his age demonstrated rather than told and in fact you later mention his white beard and that he is elderly so some of this feels redundant to me.

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You may be right about the redundancy part, which I suspect is a re-edit symptom. Probably lose the "old" on the first line.

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I prefer people to put dialogue on a new line, unless the lead in tag is really short, i.e. Jack continued. "So where were you exactly at ten pm?"

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It's interesting you mention this, because I kind of modified how I handle it recently. I always used to do it exactly as you say...every line of dialogue on its own line save for little bitty tags...but in my recent reading-binge I saw an awful lot of authors doing it in various other ways. I've sort of been doing it by feel, lately. Something I should research a bit I think.

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Is this how you are saying you are male? It feels odd for the narrator to refer to himself in these terms. It would seem more natural to say: The "class" consisted of Kyefyn and me, one-half of Oryal’s...

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Ironically, I saw this as a sort of convention to...conventionality, basically and to try and get more info on the narrator into the first 13 but the wording is a bit iffy I'll grant.

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I'm just pointing out the things that I spotted that I would change (which is the point of critting).

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Everybody has their own point to critting just as they do to writing. For me, the point of critting is to assist the writer in doing whatever it is they are trying to do and as a wonderful bonus side effect it helps you understand what you are looking for in your own writing...but again, everyone has their own reasons and goals.

With regard the paragraph for dialogue, I was at a convention speaking with two well known authors and an editor and this topic came up. It was mentioned as something to be assiduously avoided.

Basically they all suggested to me to paragraph for all speech unless there is a relatively brief action tag in between or an even shorter on at the start. The editor said that she finds novice writers tend to write longer paragraphs, which makes harder reading.

It mattered little to me as I write short paragraphs anyway and pretty much paragraph all speech.

You write short paragraphs, too.

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Basically they all suggested to me to paragraph for all speech unless there is a relatively brief action tag in between or an even shorter on at the start.

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