posted
I know there's lots of smart people out here, and I was wondering if you could explain (in rather simple terms) what happens to the PHYSICAL BODY after death (please, no philosophical/religious insights.) I was just wondering if there's some kind of bag you could place a corpse in (death by stab wounds) that would keep the corpse well enough preserved that in 2-3 weeks you could draw a small amount of blood from it. Is that even possible? And what would the body look like? I'll give any more info you need if I haven't been specific enough . . . all of this is new to me.
posted
First off, the body would be sooooooo stinky after three weeks, I don't even know what would possess you to open it. Eww. In all seriousness, the body begins to decay (rot like an old apple) almost immediately. The cells (the tiny little round things that you are made up of) die, and you basically just fall apart, rotting away in your little grave. Gross, huh? The soft tissues (hair, skin, organs, etc.) go first, and by the end of three weeks, you'd look pretty nasty. Ever seen Sleepy Hollow (came out a year or so ago - the one where Icabod Crane <played by Edward Scissorhands> lives)? Those bodies are pretty accurate, and most of those are only a day or so old. Nastynasty. After a few weeks, there would probably be some blood, but it would most likely only be dried blood - like a giant scab. If you placed the body in fermaldihide or other preservative, or sealed it air-tight (and I mean air-tight), it might not be completly forgone so fast, but in some kind of juice, there won't be any blood or clean tissue samples when you get it out. Word to the wise - don't be a coroner.
[This message has been edited by Soule (edited February 19, 2002).]
posted
Actually, the most effective way to keep a body in 'usable' condition has more to do with HOW it is stored than in WHAT it is stored. Refrigeration at freezing or near-freezing temperatures can keep a body not only intact, but 'fresh' for a good, long period of time. For example, the Ice Man (discover in the Alps, I believe) was in such good condition that the hair and skin was available for DNA study! His facial features were largely discernible. I know that's more than you asked, but it illustrates the importance of temperature in slowing, even nearly halting, the typical rate of tissue decay following death. As an interesting aside, it's thought he died a violent death. There are other examples of that phenomenon, and you could probably find some great info on the net. Mummification is also an option for research, and not necessarily just the ancient Egyptian variety. The principles still might apply to some of your questions.
Another good source of information for you might very well be talking to a coroner or mortician. But keep in mind that morticians not only use embalming fluids that alter tissues and fluids, but they also drain the natural fluids from the body in order to preserve it. I don't know that they'd be able to tell you much about how it changes over time.
You might even consider talking to a forensic scientist if you know one, provided that you understand that they are not at liberty to share any details directly related to cases they're working on. I used to work for one and have a close friend in that field as well, and they're amazing sources of information, but sensitive about their obligations, so it's best to be clear of your intentions and respectful.
I don't know if any of this will help you, but it might at least be a good starting point for your explorations. It's such a specialized area, and when that's the case you'll always find the experts the most helpful.
Good luck to you!
[This message has been edited by Persephone (edited February 19, 2002).]
posted
I read an article a few of years back about how there are set stages of decay that can actually be used to give a time frame for a person's death. Not pretty. They were using it for forensics, working on missing persons and that sort of thing. Unfortunalty I don't remember where I read it -- it might have been Discover but don't hold me to that. That was for more for bodies no one was trying to perserve, so I don't know if that is the kind of info that would be helpful anyway.
GZ
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited February 20, 2002).]
posted
I'm pretty sure that all the blood coagulates pretty quickly. even if you immediately froze it and then unthawed it three weeks later, I don't know how much blood you could draw.
I reemphazine: I don't know, but my suspicion is that a 'tiny' amount is all that you could hope for.
posted
Blood pools in the lowest part of the body---so if you have a body on it's back them most of the blood is going to be in the parts touching the floor--or whatever. You will most likely not be able to draw bloood in the traditional way at all.
posted
This has been very helpful so far, and that info about the Ice Man was pretty interesting . . . we did something about him in school ages ago, but we didn't get that detailed.
So (I'm just trying to summarize things, someone please please please tell me what I get wrong) . . . Stevenson dies of getting stabbed. I can make the wounds pretty much wherever is convenient for later. She's placed in a bag that has some kind of freezing device (is that possible? and what temperature would be good?) She's in this bag lying down, back to the floor just like normal, and then slid under a bed (would this special freezer bag even fit under a bed? If I need to, she could be in a bathtub, but the bed thing is better.) Three weeks passed. So, to draw blood (I need a . . . finger-full, [I don't mean carved out, I mean it has to fit on the surface of a finger--more details if necessary]) the person would have to be turned upside down, because blood "coagulates" (?) and it would be on the part facing the floor . . . Would all this work?
posted
Why not just have it be cold outside---freezing maybe---and have the body stashed int he summer house or in the pool house, or maybe even under the cover over the frozen pool? Or have the killer stash the body in the chest freezer--(no wait Picket Fences did that) but you get the idea. You don't need a speacial bag if you change the suroundings a bit and maybe the time of year.
posted
Ewwwww IS an understatement. This is just getting nasty. Yucketyyuckyuck. Spew. Anyway, an air-tight bag WOULD work for slowing down the process of decaying (something about bacteria in the air tends to decay the body faster - I don't know, I'm not a coroner, and this is a pretty freaky topic). The frozen thing would also working - if air-tight to begin with. Presently, I am not aware of air-tight freezing bags, and I doubt they could fit under a bed. Also, the blodd would still be in a giant internal scab. Ugg. And, no, cold temps. outside would probably not work, unless you live in the artic, because they have to be REALLY cold - as in below freezing point. You'd have to be able to take something outside and have it turn to a popsicle IMMEDIATELY in order for it to be cold enough. Your best bet is to have the body placed in an air-tight container (this also helps keep the stench to a minimum) in a dark area (an little-used closet or such) in a chilly basement, or heck, even a freezer (the kind that resemble hope chests) immediately after she dies. You might want to cut back on the blood loss, if you really need blood (which will come out dried anyway - I know how to undetectably kill an adult male without any blood loss if you are interested - the things you learn from your mother, honestly), and I would actually suggest taking hair or skin for your sample if you freeze it, just make sure she doesn't get freezer burn ;p. This is so morbid.
Posts: 79 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
lividity---the pooling of the blood on the lowest surface of a body---look it up.
Sorry, but I also have to disagree on the cold temps not keeping a body. Don't you put meat in a fridge to store it so it doesn't rot? Ever been to a morgue? They keep bodies in a cooler to preserve them sometimes for great deals of time.
If the body were kept in an airtight place and it was 34 degrees---the lividity alone would give you blood.
Ok---when a body begins to decay it goes through several stages---rigor begins to set in (a good indicator of how long a person has been dead), then rigor passes and you have a limp body again. You also have bloating and the break down of tissues.
Folks, a body that has sat for some time is a messy thing---nothing dries out--it gets wetter and body fluids begin to mix and drain away into whatever the body is laying on. ( I worked for a cleaning company once and they wanted us to clean a carpet after loner uncle Harry had died on it)(5 days after he was dead on it). What a smell and a mess!
As far as telling how long the person has been dead---outdoors or even indoors many times they use the stages of insect larva and flies to tell what time of year the person died.
Sorry to gross you out---my hubby is an EMT/paramedic. He’s also a combat medic. I have worked on a mink farm where they use dead livestock to feed the mink. Believe me—you would have blood—in a nasty form, but blood. Nothing would be dry---unless you placed the body in a desert climate. Air tight may work---but there are parasites that we carry around in us alive that would be at work.
Take two chunks of red meat—something like liver works well----put one in a seal a meal bag (air tight)(lots of blood)and put it under the bed. Put the other in the fridge. Wait one week---check it out----you will get what you need for your story right there.
Sorry to turn the stomachs of some readers---I’ve had some first response training myself.
posted
Hi there Your post reminded me of an article I read a while back, about a university that leaves rotting human corpses lying around for the purpose of studying the decomposition process. I did some digging, and found a few links that might lead you to some useful information:
posted
I have one thing that really needs to be cleared up.
Putting a dead body in an airtight container will not, I repeat NOT, do anything to keep it fresh. If anything, it would tend to accelerate decomposition.
Your body already contains everything necessary for messy, stinky, festering, horrible decomposition. The very best microbes that have ever adapted to breaking down meat (and human flesh) in an anaerobic environment free from microbal competition already reside in your gut, where they play an integral part in breaking down the food that you eat (while alive). Also, if you die in anything like normal health, your body will have a substantial buildup of digestive enzymes and other cute tricks which, in the abscence of active life processes, will work to break down your tissue very efficiently if your body is maintained in a closed environment.
If you seal a human body in an airtight container for as little as a week, it will be far nastier and smellier than if you had left it in the open. After three weeks, there is a good chance that all soft tissue will have liquified, and the resulting liquid will resemble toxic depolymerized waste more than it will resemble blood.
Freezing, if done soon after death, will prevent blood clotting, but it will leave physical evidence in the blood (and tissue). When flesh and blood are frozen, ice crystals tend to cause extensive cellular damage, which would be visible under a microscope, and which would even be detectable by standard blood chemistry analysis (the insides of the blood cells leak out and alter the chemistry of the plasma, which is normally separated from the blood cells by centrafuge).
One way to avoid this damage, or at least minimize it, is to use a very rapid freezing process, like immersion of the (preferably sectioned) body in liquid nitrogen. Or if it is just the blood you are preserv ing, you can put it in sealed packets, quick freeze those3, then thaw them out later.
If you are not concerned with chemical or other evidence in the blood, then you can use an anti-coagulant and keep the blood refrigerated in sterile containers. If you use an anti-coagulant factor found normally in blood (of which there are several) and kept the blood just above freezing for the duration you could even pass a cursory blood screening without having anything unusual noticed. A more detailed analysis would still pick up the chemical imbalance and the low cellular vitality.
To summarize, freezing is the best general purpose way to keep a body, but tends to leave unmistakable micro-damage as evidence, blood can be kept fairly long outside a body using the right techniques, but preservation by airtight container just is not a good idea. If you want an accurate idea of what happens to a human body in an enclosed space, try sealing up a hunk of meat with a bit of feces and some vomitus in a zip-lock bag, and see what happens (I emphasize that you do not wish to open this bag ever to test the result with any of your other senses).
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