I'm just wondering if OSC has written anything of his experiences and/or perception of the submissions procedure for serious aspiring novelists.
I'll be honest here - I've no idea about OSC - never read his books [haven't read other peoples' fiction for years]. I came here looking to contact him, nothing else.
I'm soliciting for representation at the moment and already have an appreciable number of rejections, almost wholly on the approach alone. While I prepare for a new round of submissions I'm trying to contact a number of authors in the same general genre - information gathering for tips and comments.
If he's interested in contacting myself and/or wouldn't mind an idea of my work, here's the URL:
posted
On the query process I am running about 1 interested out of 7 not right now. Good odds, I'm told. And this does not count the scam people out there.
Thanks for the comment - you do seem to be doing well so far. One of my problems has been not focussing upon the right agents. It appears that unless an agent specifies an interest in sci-fi/ fantasy, they won't give you a reading. Not here in the UK, anyway.
As for the approach letter - David Gemmell gave me a working format and some invaluable advice that I'm acting upon.
I appreciate that published authors cannot speak for agents or publishers, but they do have that valuable experience of getting through the door. That's the information I'm trying to collect.
As I submit and research I keep learning little tricks and tips. I can collect so much. But I always value comments from published authors, simply because they've been there themselves.
Maybe I don't need to ask any authors for comments - but why waste a potentially valuable resource?
If Orson Scott Card is hesitant to make personal contacts with rising unpublished authors, then may I recommend he consider opening up a page speaking of his own experiences? Had a look but not seen any such around. Just an idea.
quote:If Orson Scott Card is hesitant to make personal contacts with rising unpublished authors, then may I recommend he consider opening up a page speaking of his own experiences? Had a look but not seen any such around. Just an idea.
This is where people can submit questions that OSC answers on the website.
It isn't that he is hesitant to make personal contacts with rising unpublished authors--consider the writing workshop he did last year and the one he's doing this year--but that he is busy being a writer and providing for his family.
He has set up these writing workshops to help rising unpublished authors, but he can't do it all himself, especially since he is doing all of this for free.
Also, he's had two books published that are intended to answer questions like yours for rising unpublished authors.
Before you judge his willingness to be helpful, I think you should do a little more homework.
posted
You also might want to consider Writers Digest magazine. Yes I am published, in non-fiction article length, I also did a good amount of ghost writing while in Germany. I know a bit about the query process, but as far as a foot in the door with an agent---babe in the deep dark woods. And I only started serious fiction about 3 years ago.
One thing to consider is clips and credits. Have none? Then think about volunteer work. The local BSA or GSA needs fliers for their summer camp? raise your hand, design and write them. Bingo a credit and a clip provided you did a professional job. Write newsletters, letters to the editor, see if any local papers have a your turn type column—no you don’t get paid but those agents ect will know you are taking your writing seriously and that others are too. (ugh I ended a sentence with the word too) (as well) And so on.
Consider joining a nationally recognized writer’s group. Many have lower memberships for non-published authors and writers. But but 90 bucks a year, or 50 or 30? Think about it---I have read a few books by agents on getting an agent and other interviews with some of them, many agree if a writer is a member of a pro organization it means they take their craft seriously. And you have to prove just how serious you are.
And each credit or clip counts as long as it’s relevant. Saying here is my Fantasy novel blah bla blah—oh and by the way I had three articles published in Car and Driver in XXXX isn’t going to help much. But put in a short bio and previous publications letter to go with your query. Make it part of your query. Put it on nice paper like a publicist would, it helps.
I know in some of my rejections I have been told they never had a better or more organized query. Why do I get rejected----flooded market, outside the box ideas, cross genre---I don’t know at this point. I do know I tend to write disturbing stories. Just need to find the right agent---one as weird as me I guess.
Wasn't intending to judge - I've been on the internet long enough to see some of the more unpleasant folks who appear attracted to it.
Plus the notion of having an important personal e-mail addy blocked up with repetitive posts and spam.
Btw - I looked in the big local bookshop today and discovered that OSC isn't as small a fish as I thought he may have been
I've checked the link and it's providing more than enough information - sincere thanks for that. Glad you didn't take open offence at my URL either - I really did try not to post it.
Shawn -
Thanks for your comments as well. After reading some good articles at:
I've realised that a few credentials can help make an agent take extra note. So I'm planning to submit a few short stories around various publications. Guess I have to be a writer first, then a novellist. Still, whatever it takes.
posted
Hi I don't mean this to sound negative, but I think you may find yourself encountering trouble if you attempt short fiction from the perspective that it's easier to write, or somehow an inferior medium to novels. If anything, writing a good short story is more difficult, since you have so little space to cover so much ground. There are a multitude of sins which may be tolerable in a novel, but which can simply not exist in a short.
There's also the added consideration that a writer can contribute quite happily in several different forms. Some of Orson Scott Card's finest work has been short fiction, while he is most famous as a novelist. He also writes for theatre, newspapers, and animation markets...
This is one of the most dickhead things I’ve ever heard. No offense to Mr. Chronicles of Empire; I‘ve actually heard several published writers say such things in interviews. It doesn’t even come off cutely pretentious. It comes off ignorant and asshole-ish. Oh you write so you’re to good to read fiction. F—k you, buddy. It’s like some saying, “How do you listen to music that doesn’t have words?” or someone who’s just to stupid to be able to have a book hold their attention. If you don’t read other people’s fiction it makes me leery of your own fiction writing. Without influences how can you write?
posted
John, some writers don't read fiction because they don't WANT to be influenced.
Writers can be influenced by life, by the nonfiction they read, by the research they do.
Other people's work is not the only source of inspiration.
Of course, if you don't read what others have written, you don't know what's been done (and done to death), but <shrug> that's a choice a writer can make.
posted
I have a mere few comments to make here. First to you, John: calm down! That is all. Second two are for Kathleen (because I love you so):
quote:Also, he's had two books published that are intended to answer questions like yours for rising unpublished authors.
Two? I was aware of only the one (How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy). I'd definitely want to read the other one.
quote:John, some writers don't read fiction because they don't WANT to be influenced.
I've done this. I'm planning on writing a vampire novel, and so I've deliberately stayed away from all vampire novels (although, this is largely to avoid that oh-so-irritating and oh-so-wrong Anne Ricey vampire. Tragic figures my...um, rear-quarters). So there's nothing wrong with avoiding certain types of fiction, John. Although reading does a better writer make. Actually, I've decided I have something to say to Chronicles:
quote:I'll be honest here - I've no idea about OSC - never read his books [haven't read other peoples' fiction for years]. I came here looking to contact him, nothing else.
Although I kinda defended you above, not reading for years seems a little excessive, and I'd recommend you start again. Also, why would you want the advice of someone whose books you've never read? And if you've never read his work, how did you know he even exists? A bewildered, JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I didn't mean to come off so zealously, it's just a comment I read a lot and it bothers me. I'll take the advice of friends and stay away from certain books that have similar themes. But I'm writing a fantasy novel and I've intentinonly found good fantasy books to read. I don't lift anything from these books, except maybe tone and last I checked you can't copyright that. It just get me in that frame of mind. To me it's like being a musician and saying that you don't listen to other people's music.
Too a certain extent I can understand it. Like when everyone said SilverChair sounded like Pearl Jam, so they stopped listening to Pearl Jam, so not to be influenced. Also, I guess at a certain point when writing is your job it becomes a 9-5 grind and the last thing you want to do is look at more words. Kinda like the gynecologist who doesn't want to have sex with his wife after a hard day at the office. (although I can't relate to this either. There's no such thing as too much reading (fiction) just like there's no such thing as too much vag---well, you get my point.)
No matter how understading I try to be the comment still bites my ass. To each his own I guess.
JOHN!
PS: How do ya'll get that cool underliney thing going for quotes?
quote:PS: How do ya'll get that cool underliney thing going for quotes?
You mean this?
Type in "[quote ]" at the beginning of your quote (only without any spaces.) and [/quote] at the end of it. b for bold, i for italics . . . there's a whole list. If you click the 'UBB Code' link off to the left (on the new message screen . . . right above the smilies legend.) it'll give you a list of all the tags.
As for reading other people's stuff . . . I can't imagine NOT reading books in a genre I want to write. You kind of have to to see what's traditional, what's expected, and what HASN'T been done! I guess I can see the whole 'I don't want my writing tainted by others' styles' thing, but it doesn't work for me. I need to get into a rhythm . . . and sometimes reading helps that.
*sigh* Wish I had more material to read. Last OSC book I read (I think Shadow of the Hegemon) took 8 hours flat. Reading habits like that get EXPENSIVE!
-Nate
[This message has been edited by Falken224 (edited June 13, 2002).]
posted
JK, the other book by OSC to which I referred is CHARACTER AND VIEWPOINT, which he wrote first. It's not just about characterization and point of view, but about how those aspects of writing tie in to every other aspect.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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quote: I guess I can see the whole 'I don't want my writing tainted by others' styles' thing, but it doesn't work for me. I need to get into a rhythm . . . and sometimes reading helps that. – Falken224
And I’d have to agree with you there. Feeling the rhythm of the words in particular can get the writting juices working again. Although I can feel the peril of slipping onto someone else’s voice a bit. Thank goodness for editing, in which such strange sounding drivel (when it’s planted in the middle of your work) can be exorcised when it slips in.
quote:JK, the other book by OSC to which I referred is CHARACTER AND VIEWPOINT
Oh. Don't I feel silly. You'd think I'd know that, having read it. Umm, oh look everyone, a well-timed distraction! Reading, fine with that. But isn't there the fear that, if you want to write an epic fantasy, by reading Lord of the Rings, for example, you might slip into a LOTR-tone/style? Reading other novels, however, would still be keeping your mind alert in that area, while not having a major influence on the work at hand (a Romance, for example, will have minor influence over an epic fantasy.) JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
How can you write and not read? Ok maybe you want to not get "caught up in style" But a writer not only writes but reads.
Somewhere I read and have re-read many times that in order to produce good writing you need to read in your chosen genre. Why?
How do you know what's done? What hasn't been done? Gadds I just can't imagine being so arrogant as to think I do not need to read anyone elses stuff, but people are going to read mine? What is the reasoning behind such a statement? I read a lot of mysteries, but I don't write them. But I still read and quickly--too quickly. But I read, heck I read the back of the milk carton ten times over if it is the only text avaliable at breakfast.
I read the good and the bad, the good to see how they pulled off making the reader "feel", the bad to know what not to do.
There are so many reasons to read if you write.
But the biggest I can think of is---how can you love writing and be dedicated to it if you don't read? Why would you bother to write?
He didn't say he didn't read. He just said he hadn't read fiction for a long time.
Yes, I agree that you ought to read fiction if you're going to write it, but fiction isn't the only thing you should read if you're going to write fiction.
It's simply rare that I read *fiction* these days.
The predominant reason I stopped reading other peoples' *fiction* is because I found my writing style is so easily influenced by others. And if you want to create your own distinctive style of writing, that's the last thing you want. While my most important writing was still formative, I felt I needed that exclusion.
The second reason is that I've already read a mass of *fiction*. When I was younger I was a voracious reader. A very voracious reader. I sought out classic literary works and read them. I read across the genres and centuries. Heck, I even read a dozen Shakespeare plays for fun. I read everything I could.
Nowadays it's hard to enjoy fiction - I simply dissect and criticise. But ultimately it's more important to continually and aggressively dissect and criticise my own work. I don’t want other people pointing out my literary flaws - I'd rather find them first, and attend to them where I can.
I do still read a lot, but the main focus of my bookshelves is research material. For me that means everything I can on the ancient and mediaeval worlds. I'm reading Polybius at the moment.
Creating my own works is an incredibly consuming task. I have to keep my mind in the reality of the world of my writing - explore it, build on it, improve it - then reflect that in the writing. If I spend time immersing myself in the reality of other authors, then I'm neglecting my own.
And if published authors declare a similar attitude, then at least I'm on the right track.
posted
I agree, Kathleen; there’s no rule that says you have to do anything. Unfortunately, the only thing I care to read is fiction. Well outside of the occasional philosophy or theology book. I also go out of my way not to do research for my stories at least nothing that a decent internet search engine can’t tell me. That’s part of the reason I read fiction too, it serves as research to some extent. Wow, I guess this comment is just as dickhead as saying I don’t read fiction. I have a friend who researches medieval literature and reference books on the time period, so when I ‘m writing a fantasy story I pick his brain here and there. I guess this only works because his a trusted source. One day Ill probably have to break down and do my own research.
JOHN!
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited June 14, 2002).]
posted
I think that a writer should read every thing that he can get his hands on. Fiction, nonfiction, the phone book, I mean everything. If you feel that you are going to be unduly influnced by other fiction writers, you must either have not developed your own voice well enough, or are really inscure. I feel that the only way to get overly influnced, is to read only one author too much. If you read enough it should all even out. As to OSC's nonfiction books, I read them booth at the library and then went out and bought them. They are full of good advice written in a clear concise language. I recomend them highly. And no I don't lile all of OSC's fiction.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I had the experience recently of not writing for a while, and then trying to write soon after I'd read Tolkien and then Jane Austen. The complaint I got was that I was being too wordy, which they had not seen before.
A good book for exploring voice is Ursula K. LeGuin's "Steering the Craft". This does not urge you in any way to adopt some style, but it does help you explore rhythm, tone, etc. I haven't finished it all, but I have really enjoyed the writing exercises she's had. Its rather cleansing.
posted
Ah, Chronicles_of_Empire, you poor silly coo.
I guess you could write a novel without reading other writers' fiction. But you're going to have one lousy sense of the market. I mean, you'll be hanging out writing your masterpiece, thinking that you've written deathless freakin' prose here and then learn that your writing basically is the same thing that other authors have done, unsuccessfully. Or that it reads like a ripoff of someone else's ideas.
Well, you didn't know that, WHY?
'Cause you weren't reading.
Sure, you can write all day long without reading a darn thing, but watch how well you sell to the current market if you don't. Watch how well you manage to get a COMMERCIAL sell. And when you want to get published, you're really not doing pure writing anymore. You've got to make a sale, so yeah, you've got to give people what they want, not just what you want to give them.
And as for getting your "writing style". Let me laugh aloud, my friend. I'm sorry, I get tired of authors who show off in their fiction,
"LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! I HAVE A GREAT STYLE!"
That's annoying. I don't read books for the author's style. I read them because they're stories that are well told. And no, telling a tale well doesn't mean having the right style. It means having the right tone, pacing, rhythm, characters, viewpoint, setting, point of view. Those aren't particular to an author, they're particular to the story.
I know what style is. And style is Charles Dickens's journalistic detail which is really unneccessary in many of his books. Or Emily Bronte's obsession with frame stories, which does nothing for Wuthering Heights. Style and a 7.99 will buy you a copy of Ender's Game. Which, to be honest, I've never once noticed if OSC has a style. He's never made me have to. Instead, he, being a talented writer, has pulled me into the stories.
Forget yourself, your style, your attitudes. It's not about the writer, it's about the writing. Your audience isn't going to know you. They aren't going to give you a cookie because you've got a neato style. The audience isn't going to give you lots of high-brow literary praise. An audience praises you when they buy LOTS of your novel and they let it touch them in the way you meant it to. When will writers learn this?
But if anyone can pull this scheme off, it's you. I mean you're really gutsy, coming in here, among FANS of OSC's, admitting you've not read one single book of his and THEN admitting you thought he was a SMALL FISH. This isn't live chat. You can't say you blurted it out. You had time to think about it and revise it. And you still said it.
And I'd feel silly if I were to write vampire fiction WITHOUT reading Anne Rice. Not to copy her, but at least to know what I was dealing with in the market, to know what people might be expecting. Because who buy vampire novels are, many of them, Anne Rice fans and some might be expecting something Rice-esque. And even if you were going to write the anti-Anne Rice vampire novel, you'd at least need to know what you were against, right? That's like going into battle without knowing how many troops and commanders the other side has.
BTW, has anyone read the two novels that Anne Rice's son came out with? Can you say: home cooking?
(+/-) Georgie
**** Q: What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer?
Just wanted to quote one thing and say I think I have learned this and agree with you---anyone can say but great writing sells and no matter the rules my great writng will sell----I guess I have developed a NOT attitude toward this.
quote:An audience praises you when they buy LOTS of your novel and they let it touch them in the way you meant it to. When will writers learn this?
posted
Style is simply the manner in which the storyteller seeks to engage his/her audience. Ideally, every storyteller would seek to tell their story in a way that best suits their person and story. That's what I needed to find for myself, and I make no excuses for that - neither do I make excuse for being honest with my original motive for being here.
But you are right about reading fiction, at least to some extent - it's markets that talk, and I've learned here that I must learn that language.
I'll spend a while in the big book shop tomorrow and look at how the genre books are structured, and browse a while. But sit and read a whole fiction novel? Egads, I've got a lot of writing and editing to do first!
[This message has been edited by Chronicles_of_Empire (edited June 24, 2002).]
posted
Georgie, hmm. What can I say? I'll say this: don't chew the guy out. He has valid reasons for not reading a lot. You might disagree with them, and I do, too. But you learn how to write through writing, which is what he's been doing. So not reading doesn't ensure his writing is a pile of dung. Equally, a desire to be published doesn't make writing impure. What does make it impure is doing it purely for the money. There's a difference there. Oh, and style is just the particular way in which you write. So everyone has it. Even you. So no, you don't know what style is. And, of course, I took this to heart:
quote:And I'd feel silly if I were to write vampire fiction WITHOUT reading Anne Rice.
Because who buy vampire novels are, many of them, Anne Rice fans and some might be expecting something Rice-esque.
Rule number one about writing is 'Right for me first, then other people.' I don't write for the audience. What I want to write is a vampire novel without the wounded-puppy vamps that fill Anne Rice novels. For fear of influence, I steer clear. Hell, I steer clear just because I hate the books. Equally, I don't care what the Anne Rice readers are expecting. First, I'm not writing it for them. If they enjoy it, that's great. If not, boo hoo. Second, I'm not going into battle. I'm not going up against Anne Rice, I'm going alongside (on the other side of the room, with any luck). Hmm. I had a fair bit to say, didn't I? JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
srhowen: I'm not windy. Right now, I'm actually kind of sweaty because the AC has been out today. Sorry, just got lots to say. I'll try to make it entertaining.
I'll do it in four part harmony with full orchestration later tonight if anyone wants to come listen. Bring a wine glass, I'll try to hit a high note and break it.
chronicles_of_empire: my poor silly coo, you are. I like you, man. I wanted to not like you, but I just can't help it. You're interesting and honest and upfront. I like that. And the way an author seeks to engage the audience isn't style. That's just called having something interesting and special about the novel. No, style my friend, is the individualism that writers do because they aren't machines and are human and do silly things.
JK: Nah, I'm not chewing him out. Besides, he probably doesn't taste good with katsup or mustard or any other convenient household condiment. And my grill's out of gas.
No, not reading others' works doesn't ensure that his work is a dung pile. Well, it doesn't ensure that it's a gold mine, either. I'd have to see his work and judge for myself. I can't evaluate his work from his attitudes and a few forum posts. That would be a very deeply dumb thing to do. And I would consequently look really silly. Really.
And yeah, you can try to avoid Anne Rice novels. I'm not a knee-jerk Anne Rice hater. She's got her moments. But yeah, I agree, Lestat got a little whiny and fruity for me, too. But at least I can say this having some knowledge of it.
But still, I mean, love, hate, or don't care about Anne Rice, if you write vampire fiction, you've got to at least acknowledge her. I'm not saying you should read her thoroughly or pick up every book. I'm DEFINITELY not saying you should pay money for one (good time to find friends who are fans and knick a copy). But you can't just pretend she doesn't exist. I don't mean you've got to put some obligatory Rice-isms in your work or anything. Your work doesn't have to acknowledge her in anyway (and probably should), but you as an intelligent author should so. I just mean as an author you should have some idea in your head of what she's done.
Hey, read the back of the novel and have someone review it for you, but at least know what it is. I'm not saying you're going into battle with her. It's not like you're coming up to her at a book signing and screaming,
"With the flaming sword of good fiction, I slay thee Anne Rice and condemn thy further works to immediate paperback release!"
No, of course not. You'd never get a flaming sword into a bookstore. The sprinklers would go off and you'd have smoking, smoldering, non-flaming sword. And probably a criminal record shortly thereafter.
What I am saying is: I'd feel silly.
However, I would like to see something by chronicles_of_empire and see if non-reading has done anything for him. Hey, I might be wrong, maybe not reading is the way to go.
And if I'm wrong I'd sure like to know about it. For future reference, so I can say to myself, "Self, we've already made this mistake. I think it's time for a new one."
And my Self will reply, "Yes, happy other-self, we have. I like this mistake. It's shiny and involves implements of destruction crossing state lines."
Sorry, I'm feeling VERY silly myself. It's been a very absurd day.
(+/-) Georgie
<~ ~>
"Valueable life skills in France at this time are, sewing, cooking, and knowing how to say 'I surrender' in as many languages as possible."
S'alright - there's nothing really interesting to see. I learn by trial and error. My isolation was a part of the trial, but here I learn myself in error.
I'd completed a novel about 8 years ago, but quickly learned that I couldn't actually write - I could string words together, but there was no coherent structure. I needed to learn to do that by myself.
Now I obviously need to shape my work according to demanding markets.
It's all a sort of literary evolution, I guess. If I can make it past the australopithicus stage then there's hope for me yet!
[This message has been edited by Chronicles_of_Empire (edited June 25, 2002).]
posted
Georgie, there are links to Chronicles' stuff in his posts in the Fragments and Feedback part of the Hatrack Writers workshop which you can find by going to
posted
Thanks for giving us the link to a sampling of Chronicles' writing, KDW. "Chronicles of Empire" says more regarding the perils of 'fiction celibacy' than anything else I can imagine.
I should stop there, but the thought of not reading any fiction 'for years' appears to have hit a nerve. (Oh, the pain ... I must write something to ease my suffering!)
So many creative and talented writers--such an unbelievably rich resource! What writer could possibly deprive him/herself of such a bountiful feast of knowledge and entertainment--for years? YEARS! Good lord, it makes me sick to even imagine.
The good news is that it's not too late for Brian to find wisdom in the world of already-published fiction. (Use the Force, Brian!) My humble suggestion: Brian should bury "Chronicles of Empire" for six months, and spend that time reading fiction. Any published fiction will do, at this point. Then he should go back and re-read his masterpiece, prepared for a wicked re-write.
There, I feel much better now. And that's what's really important, right?
posted
I can see where he's coming from. Reading novels is very time consuming, and takes a great deal of time away from writing. Sure, I love to read both genre and crossgenre stuff, but I always feel guilty that I'm spending so much time sitting and not writing (though I often justify it as "research")
However, that reading time, I've found, is often far better spent reading nonfiction. Sure reading novels can give you a better sense of how one writer or another develops character, but wouldn't reading a biography or two help with writing deeper characters?
As much as some people groan when they hear his name, Robert Jordan (from what I've read) reads very little fiction, spending almost all his reading time with histories and military books. I know OSC has mentioned that he finds himself reading very little genre work these days, too. And writers like Clancy and Auel spend almost all their time buried in nonfiction texts.
I don't think it's necessary at all to read other authors' works. Especially if you've already read a considerable amount. Lay off a bit, guys. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.
posted
I read a lot of mystery, do I write it? No. BUt I will say that yu have to be well read in order to write. If you choose non-fic to read then by all means--do it.
I've personally taken no offence from this thread.
I've seen it written that writers should seek to write for themselves. This is exactly what "Chronicles of Empire" was.
Now I know that writing for professional markets needs to be tempered by an understanding of those markets.
This is the attitude my next piece "Emperor" is based upon.
As I've tried to point out, I have read extensively in the world of fiction. But now I feel my limited time needs to concentrate primarily on non-fiction research resources.
"Chronicles of Empire" gave me a lot of confidence where required. And it will eventually be edited.
Being able to accept criticism of that work has also been an important learning experience that I greatly value - especially in being told where my flaws and weaknesses lay. I am evolving. Hopefully my evolution will continue to publishing standard.
posted
Just been skimming through this thread again and I notice, Chronicles, that you say you're from the UK. Not only this, but you say you've spoken with David Gemmel (well, corresponded with, spoken with, it's all the same to me). We really need to have a UK-stylie chat sometime. That way I can interrogate you as to what Mr Gemmel said to you...*grin* JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
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And so on.
