quote:"Appropriate and medium in stature, quick in movement and unafraid of hardship, China astronauts are clearly superior."
The Chinese have admitted that their true plan is to establish a moon colony (I knew this was their true plan all along). They have not yet admitted that the way they plan to do this is by simply sending taikonauts up there with no way of getting back until after the base is finished, but I expect that sooner or later we'll be able to see the pattern for ourselves. And of course they are now getting ready to initiate their manned space program by sending up some of those fearless and fairly expendable taikonauts.
So, as Science Fiction writers, do we wish them the best of luck and start changing all our moonbase terms to Chinese? Or should we, loyal and patriotic Americans all, hope that those clever lads didn't really steal all the space technology we pretty well know they did? Or should we be gambling that the next election brings in a Democrat with a true vision of space exploration (do any of the Democrats even talk about space these days?)?
posted
Well, since the Americans aren't getting it done I'd say go China! I'm sorry if it sounds unpatriotic, but I'm a science fiction reader/wrter for a reason...I love space!
I do hope our next president has a clearer vision for space exploration, though I don't think party affiliation will matter...Clinton started cutting space programs long before Bush got into office.
posted
Yes, well, I know that Bush would like to spend more on space, but I don't give him very good odds on being re-elected. I mean, he only won by the barest margin possible against Al Gore, possibly the least telegenic person ever to run for President (aside from the idiot things he does on purpose, he appears to have a serious neuro-motor defect that rendered him about as life-like as a block of wood).
The media hates Bush's guts, he's short, the war ended far too quickly for Americans to get a sense of it as a victory, the economic recovery is slow, and the Democrats are actually trying to select a photogenic candidate this time.
Bush is toast. His actual performance has been pretty good, so there will not be any serious Republican alternative. Therefore the next president will be a Democrat (barring something extraordinary--like the Second Coming).
posted
Survivor: Don't be too sure. We can only wait. It's a common phenomenon for 3rd years to be real downers, for presidents. I belive that Clinton had lower approval rating at this point. Reagean had horrible ratings, as well. Both took office a second time. Posts: 697 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Not to get too deeply involved in a political discussion here, but when I listened to the first Democrat presidential candidate debate and they were asked how they would handle Iraq, I noted that all of them answered the question as if they would have access to a time machine. "I wouldn't have gotten us involved." "I would have gotten the UN's mandate." Fine, but in the absense of time machine, what would you do?
I would say the odds of either Democrat or Republican administrations actually pushing for a moon base are really, really low given budget restraints. And, for what it's worth, it was a Democrat who originally put us into space.
posted
Victory?? What victory? The one the news talks about--no more major battles?
20 soldiers are injured every day there. And they are not small boo boos. I know, my hubby knows--he recently came home from Iraq. He was a medic over there.
One U.S. soldier is killed every other day. Killed. 15 per month
Over--Victory??? In whose book??
Sorry, I feel very strongly about this--there are 130,000 people over there yet. 4th ID will not be coming home until April--a full year. Wives and husbands here are buying body armor for their soldiers because budget cuts have not allowed all soldiers to have the best and most protective.
Oh and that leave that was so hyped up? It was canceled.
1st CAV leaves in Jan for "a year or more."
I'm at Ft Hood---where most the soldiers are from. I know what my hubby saw, I know what sort of carnage went under his hands. I barely know the man who came home.
posted
Yes, let's pack up and go home and wait till we can fight the terrorists on our own soil. Of course, that time machine will be operational by then and the same people who would never have gotten us into Iraq will say they never would have gotten us out.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited October 15, 2003).]
posted
Well, I won't discourage the Chinese. If they really want to go live on a barren rock...I say let them have it. America is sitting on its but doing nothing for what reason? I think if you take a close look at NASA you will realize they gave up on true advancement after the shuttle was produced. NASA became the high priced space airline for the govt and any company that could spring the bucks to get something onboard.
A new president will not fix our space program. How could a democrat who wants to support every "underprivileged" person in the country afford a space program. Clinton didn't even want a military, and did his best to reduce it to complete ineffectiveness. If we want a space program it will funded and operated by a commercial company, and there are several companies that have projects looking to out do NASA.
The president can try and get more money for things, but look what is happening when he requested more money for Iraq? A political struggle breaks out from day one. America has problems, and until we can fix the problems on the ground, space is not an issue.
So let China continue discovering new things about space that we will no doubt end up with ourselves. And this time we don't have to pay the bill.
quote:America has problems, and until we can fix the problems on the ground, space is not an issue.
So let China continue discovering new things about space that we will no doubt end up with ourselves. And this time we don't have to pay the bill.
Although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, LordD, this seems to imply that China has it all sewn up and in order on the ground. If anyone should be able to chew gum and set up on the moon, it should be us. Otherwise, there's more than one way to pay a bill, and some are unpleasant. "Shine on, communist moon" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted
What do you folks think the impact of the second shuttle disaster will have on US space exploration in general? My impression is the public has lost faith, especially with all the subsequent whistle-blowing indicating that NASA once again disregarded vital warnings that could have prevented the most recent tragedy, just as they ignored the O-ring issue that cost us Challenger.
Do you think the setback is permanent? Does NASA need to completely change their "business as usual" approach before more ambitious projects like a moon base are attempted?
posted
Well, my point was that we don't have the money because we spend it all on programs that don't work, and for reasons that have only political value.
I am refraining from putting my political views here in full because it could take all day. Not to mention take the thread way off topic.
My point is that "we" as Americans have certain beliefs that govern our society. In China they have a very different society that can easily determine the value of a human life as very small. If 100,000 people die in China's attempt to colonize the moon it will have no impact on the government there. Yes we will criticize them, and call them evil, but it will not stop them from doing it their way.
So do we have any chance of competing with them? No. We have too many problems with the way we handle ourselves right now. When very few people in our government actually care about us, just our vote, we have a problem. NASA is a waste and spends more time covering their buts than trying to find new ways of traveling in space.
So as much as I would like to go visit Mars personally, I don't believe I am going to hold my breath. As long as someone on this planet is moving towards advancing the human race in space I can be happy with that. I do like the fact that China is footing the bill because at this point I'm tired of footing the bill of the government spending now, and the democrats want more.
I predict China will make many mistakes, and loose a lot of people. I do believe they will eventually succeed. But instead of looking at it as a loss for America, I think it will be a gain for the human race.
posted
Well said, Lord Darkstorm. I hafe a couple other things I thought I'd add.
First, if China does succeed in colonizing the moon you better believe popular opinion in the U.S. will go back to spending money on space exploration. The main reason we pushed ahead in the first place was Sputnik, if you recall, popular opinion was not with the space program then either.
Second, it's a shame that people don't understand how much money the space program makes in the long run. I was going to post earlier but could not find the figures I read a few years ago that claimed NASA makes seven times what is put into it back to the government. I still can't find them. But the books don't look right, it's not straight forward. The money comes from new technologies, new discoveries, a stronger economy, and more tax dollars being skimmed off all the sales and incomes therein. Anyway, if anyone know shwaat I'm talking about I'd really like a reference.
But mostly, go for it, China! Move the human race forward and give us stupid Americans a big smack in the face! Maybe we'll even wake up.
posted
The war in Iraq is a horrible, necessary thing. Just like any war that was ever worth fighting. For me, the mass graves and torture chambers are enough evidence that we did the right thing. Leaving Iraq now would just put Saddam back in power, allowing him to torture and murder again. Doing the right thing always comes with a price.
We could have saved many more American lives if we never entered World War II, but no one says it would have been better to leave Hitler in power.
As much as our enemies and our own media would like to paint us as the aggressors, remember that we didn't make Iraq attack Kuwait nor did we make Iraq expel the UN Inspectors.
The UN's job was to give Iraq a chance to clean up their act, so there would be no further need for war. For some reason, Iraq's government didn't cooperate. So, the war was back on.
Anyway, back to the taikonauts...
If China is serious and can get someone to the moon, it will the best thing that ever happened to the American space program.
There is no way that the US government will allow the communist Chinese to build a moon base first. Watch how fast it becomes a priority after the first sucessful Chinese moon landing.
So, I agree. Go China! Because you'll re-energize our space program too.
posted
My only point in bringing up the "war" is that it is going to cost Bush the election (and the casualty figures...out of over a hundred thousand troops engaged, we've had a few hundred killed in how many months?--looks like a stinking training mission to me). Why don't we all argue over the economy or whether Bush is really all that short? It doesn't matter, because he doesn't have much chance of being president next term. I do have to say that Clark looks good as a SF president, but I don't think he actually appeals outside a pretty narrow demographic. He might make vice-president, though.
Kudos to Christing for pointing out that space exploration is an excellent way to make a heck of a lot of money (this, by the way, is what the Chinese claim as their sole motive--despite the fact that space technology comes out of their military budget).
The Chinese are planning to send unmanned "probes" at first, I don't think that they'll actually start sending people until they have enough equipment on the ground to realistically just leave the Taikonauts up there. That follows the pattern they've displayed with this launch, they had the technical ability to do it nearly a decade ago (if they didn't mind a certain risk of killing the guy). Instead they waited until sending a guy up was actually necessary to the next step. I don't think that safety was the sole concern here, I think they want to avoid hitting milestones before they really need to hit them.
Meaning by the time the American public figures it out, China will be way ahead of our game. And they'll have the rest of Asia sewed up in their bag if we don't do something.
posted
I don't think we need to fear the Chinese surpassing our space tech just yet. The space shuttles are pretty good, if you don't let them get 20+ years old. After 10 years they belong in museums and playgrounds.
But, if the Chinese do start making progress, we'll have to get on the stick to stay ahead.
Okay. My curiousity has got the best of me...
quote:My only point in bringing up the "war" is that it is going to cost Bush the election...
Survivor, do you consider yourself a Republican, Democrat or other? (I hope I'm not offending you. Don't answer if you don't want to.)
To be fair, I'll go first... I consider myself a moderate Libertarian.
In my opinion, I think Bush has the next election in the bag. I don't think the average American wants to leave Iraq unfinished. All of Bush's most likely opponents want to pull out.
posted
Also the only real issue the Democrats have at the moment is the economy, which is on the way back up. Most people have not seen the change because the new jobs have not actually showed up yet. But in another 6 months they will start showing up.
I don't think anyone can be real concerned when the average democrat has trouble naming more than one or two of the canidates.
I am still waiting for someone to come up with a better system for getting into space. The controlled explosion they use now is still so inefficient, not to mention the high risk of dying in the process. That would be worth the money. It's a shame I can't specify on my tax forms where I would like my money to go. I am all for spending on needed items like the military and space. We don't put enough money into research and too much into support programs that create dependance on the govt.
[This message has been edited by Lord Darkstorm (edited October 15, 2003).]
posted
I'm a Cyberneticist. I've mentioned that before somewhere or other. I despise Democrats and Socialists, and generally vote against them (talk about anti-Cybernetic). Otherwise I don't much care. Bush has done better than I expected, but that still doesn't change the fact that he's looking like a loser to me. I don't think the average American remembers what we're supposed to be doing in Iraq, let alone the rest of the world. If only we could have Robo-Nixon (Nixon's head on a giant war machine) in the next election...but alas, it is not to be.
The Space Shuttle is a piece of crap, we could do so much better if we just were willing to spend the money, or use obvious and mature technologies that we've had since before the Shuttle. I think that the nuclear powered ramjet-rocket hybrid is a perfect candidate, and we've had those for 30 years now...but we can't show them on TV or the eco-lefties will cry
Fortunately for the Chinese, they don't show their launches on TV, and they know exactly what to do with eco-lefties (unfortunately, they do the same thing or worse to nearly everyone in the country--so I'm not impressed with the moral discretion they display). Fortunately for the rest of us, I don't think they concentrated particularly hard on the nuk-rockets, but it isn't like they lack the capability (I think the rest of the world may have signed some idiot treaty or other forbidding the nuc-rockets, but either China hasn't signed or they don't intend to comply--at least not where we aren't looking).
posted
Eric, that's the same theory as the Artemis Project, which I've mentioned before. In fact, I believe they are connected in some way.
Speaking of Artemis, their magazine (which is very good, by the way, and edited by Ian Randall Strock of Asimov fame) is always looking for new fiction related to traveling to/living on the moon. So if folks are feeling stimulated by this thread, put on your writer's caps and cobble something together!
quote:But on Tuesday evening as many as five countries had indicated they were likely to abstain. Several abstentions would have clouded what otherwise represented a triumphant moment for the United States and Britain, sponsors of the resolution, along with Spain and Cameroon.
The dynamic shifted overnight, diplomats said on Wednesday, when China agreed to support the measure, and its diplomats began calling their counterparts on the Security Council seeking to bridge the final impasse, which left the United States, Britain and Spain refusing to include in the resolution any timetable for a transfer of power to the Iraqis, while Russia, France and Germany were insisting on just such a timetable. --N.Y.Times
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