posted
Last night I saw a commercial for a new movie that the advertisers claimed was an "epic" tale. I found myself wondering about that, because I've seen many people on this site claim to write "epic" fantasy. I was actually curious enough to look up the word epic. Here's what I found in Webster's on-line dictionary under noun:
quote:1 : a long narrative poem in elevated style recounting the deeds of a legendary or historical hero <the Iliad and the Odyssey are epics> 2 : a work of art (as a novel or drama) that resembles or suggests an epic 3 : a series of events or body of legend or tradition thought to form the proper subject of an epic <the winning of the West was a great American epic>
and this was under adjective:
quote:1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of an epic 2 a : extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope <his genius was epic -- Times Literary Supplement> b : HEROIC
Perhaps you see my confusiong, perhaps not. I don't believe anyone here is writing a poem on the level of the ILlad. I'm sure that movie being advertised was not poetic. As for the other, non poetic definitions, they are some of the vaguest definitions I've even looked up.
So, what do you guys think? What is an epic? If you think you're writing one, what makes your story an epic?
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited December 16, 2003).]
posted
Here is an alternate definition I found: In its strict use by literary critics, the term epic or heroic poem is applied to a work that meets at least the following criteria: it is a long narrative poem an a great and serious subject, related in an elevated style, and centered on a heroic or quasi-divine figure on whose actions depends the fate of a tribe, a nation, or the human race.
I'd believe same definition would apply to epic tale.
posted
To me, an epic story is one that involves characters that are larger than life. By thier actions or deeds they overcome odds that they should not be able to overcome. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is an epic by my standards.
But at what point does a story go from epic to melodrama? That would be my concern with trying to create any story that I would consider epic. With Tolkien the whole world was sucked into the struggle, nations and races joining together to fight the great evil. Even though the main characters are key to overcoming the challenge, they brought in others to help in the fight.
I have read many books that had a climax that decided the fate of the world. But only the main character(s) knew that it was happening. So these books failed to reach an "epic" level since the whole world was not holding its breath for the main character to succeed.
My current novel I'm hacking at would fall into the save the world catagory. The problem is that only a few people will ever know the true purpose the main character has to face. Do I concider it epic? No, just my story. The main character does have more ability than most other people, but it also turns out to be a curse. Still I think it falls short of an epic. I am more concerned with it hitting a melodrama catagory than an epic.
As for the movie, if it is Return of the King, then they have some basis for saying it. Most of the others do not. Marketing people will say anything to help get people to go to the movie.
Overall, I'll let someone else determine if anything I write is an epic, but if I have my way that will never happen.
posted
When I think of a story as being epic, I always think of it being large in scope. World altering problems. Characters traveling over a lot of ground physically, intellectually, and/or emotionally. A fairly large cast of characters. Action taking place over a substantial period of time. Long, as in a high page count. A big and sweeping story, with a certain boldness about it.
That view is a bit more general than the formal definition, but I do think that’s more how epic gets used these days.
posted
Actually, in order to be a classical epic, you don't write it, you sing it...in Greek, with a semi-formal prayer to Calliope, the Muse of Epic. It's just so good that other's eventually write it down, still in Greek, then still others later translate it into other languages
Since this is indeed a highly specific definition, the term has long since become applied to other works that were a) never in Greek b)not actually rhyme. It has also taken on secondary and associative meanings. A quick glance at the meanings that have been listed here reassure me that the members of this forum have a pretty good idea what the word means in the context of modern narrative art.
I will go ahead and clarify what Lord DS has said, to the extent of pointing out that he didn't actually say that any particular movie is being marketed as an epic narrative when it is, in point of fact, non-epic. He did manage to imply that fairly strongly...so perhaps he has a specific movie in mind.
I know, this is a sidebar or something, but I just read OSC's review of everything (for this week, at any rate), and he mentioned The Last Samurai, which does happen to treat an epic subject, namely the end of the era of the Samurai. I understand that it is very different from The Seven Samurai, being...well, different.... In any case, it treats an epic theme in narrative, and that is the qualifying standard for modern epic narrative. It is much more properly a true 'Epic' than is The Return of the King taken alone (though of course the movies based on the books by Tolkien do indeed inherit a strong claim to being epic).
Anyway, sidebar over. My sense is that people here know the difference between epic narrative and non-epic narrative (and I know the difference between here and 'here' ).
posted
I did not actually think anyone did not know if they were writing an epic or not, I was more curious than anything. I guess I heard the term epic flung around so often that it failed ot have meaning for me any longer. I can see from the discussion that I was right. If epic can be applied so broadly (albeit correctly) to anything with larger than life heroes, or anything covering a great scope (in terms of time, land, or people) then a great many stories can be epics. Heck, I'm probably writing an epic sci fi story (not that I think I've ever heard of an epic sci fi, usually it's only fantasy...) It sort of deflates the term, in my opinion.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:It sort of deflates the term, in my opinion.
And yet another victim of advertising hyperbole.
You started this thread stating that you'd heard the term "epic" used in an advertisement. That alone explains the problem. Everything is "epic" to them.
posted
I'm a bit puzzled...you're saying that because the modern definition of epic isn't limited to ancient Greek heroic oral tradition songs, it is vague and meaningless?
It certainly has a less specific and limited meaning than, say...invocation. It also has a much tighter meaning than such words as 'grand', 'heroic', and even 'deflate'
Also, I notice that you fail to properly distinguish between the characteristics of the word when used as a noun and an adjective. You say, "If epic can be applied so broadly...then a great many stories can be epics." While 'a great many' is not a very well defined number, you are making a mistake in assuming that any story that can be described as 'epic' (using it as an adjective--meaning having some qualities of an epic) is therefore an epic (in the modern sense).
And if you want my opinion of whether you're writing an epic SF story (and there are such things--even more so than there are epic fantasies), send it to me and I'll tell you.
But take your pick, either epic means classical greek epic (as described above) and only that, or it includes the later meanings. In the original sense of the word no one has ever written an epic, they were not written, but developed as oral narrative, in Greek and Greek only, with specific features (as mentioned but by no means fully listed above).
You're being a bit...oblivious here, like claiming that a story doesn't have a Deus Ex Machina ending because you do not literally have a wood and rope crane lowering an actor dressed as a Greek god to tell the reader the happy ending you've decreed for the story. This is actually very difficult to pull off in a written work (particularly if you're going to have more copies of the work than there are cranes with actors available). Which is why we almost never use this much later term in its original sense.
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