I cannot say with surety that "we are all adults here", but I can assume that if we aren't, that at least the vast majority of us are.

My issue:

Today I signed in and read what appears to be at least the third case of someone considering leaving hatrack because they felt offended in some manner. It's a pity, and for what I am about to say I do apologize, but I think it needs to be said.

WARNING: Potentially offensive material to follow. If you are easily offended switch thread now!!

Okay, here goes....

Grow up, people. I mean it. All of you. I'm not going to go into who was right vs. wrong or who was out of line. How HSO and Christine behaved is between them. But let's be realistic -- a web forum is not the place to iron out differences. Pick up the d*mned phone, send an email, use IM. People come here for help, or to offer it. The Thank you should be assumed, as should the "you're welcome". If it's not said when it should be, tough. And if someone spent great effort on your behalf and you didn't thank them, shame on you. Fine. But at the end of the day what difference does it make?

Exactly no difference at all.

Are we here to make each other feel good, or are we here to help each other grow? I should think it's the latter, and if the former suffers at times, so be it.

That's not to say that we shouldn't try to use every possible manner and always seek to make each other feel good, but those things are merely incidental.

Look, I don't want to downplay people's feelings. When someone is offended it does become an issue, but that issue does not belong on a message forum designed to aid people in their progress as writers. I think we simply takes things too personally sometimes.

One of the biggest problems with email, chat rooms, web forums, and IM is that it cannot carry the personal visual and aural cues that a face to face conversation carries. One cannot sense the change in tone or expression that can make a term like "I'm sorry" mean something great or something terrible. One cannot see that someone has had a bad day or that said person may be tired, hurried, or otherwise out of sorts. Relying on this forum for emotion is a mistake. Just the cold hard facts, please....

I appreciate everyone's input. Some folks I agree with more often than others. Some may be total slime in real life, some may be angels. I have no idea. I only know the value of what they print on the screen, and that's good enough for me.

So, since I cannot determine how another person MEANT something to be said, I can only accept WHAT they said. I have two choices when something is said that might be taken offensively -- assume it was meant to be offensive, or assume it was not. I'm completely in control, at this point, of how I'm affected by it. So I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt and not be bothered by it -- whether they forgot to say something they perhaps should have, or whether they said something they perhaps shouldn't have. At least I can stay happy.

Same for everyone else here. You're all in control of whether you're happy or angry when you read these posts. if you're gonig to get offended everytime someone forgets a thank your or every time someone uses you as an example of what they think needs to be different on a forum, you're going to be upset an aweful lot of the time.

I guess what I'm trying to say here if just let it go and move on. I assume I have no right to judge anyone until I've met them and known them long enough to establish a pattern of behaviour. Until then, I have no right to judge them on any accounts.

The more I stick around on this board, the more I learn -- no matter how much I learn already. If or when I decide to leave, it'll be because I simply have nothing to gain or give to it anymore. It will not be because I'm too offended by someone.

And please understand, I have had personal expereinces, thanks laregely to email, that have caused me considerable turmoil. I mean HUGE amounts of pain. but in the end, I still harbor nor ill will towards the parties involved. Some people rushed to judgement based on notes they saw taken out of context, and it cost me. But I realize that was my risk. Feelings are truly insignificant compared to what can be lost when one takes a small offense too far.

There are some brilliant people here, and I don't think we should have to run around saying, "thank you" or "sorry if that sounded harsh" or "I hope this helps" -- though often we do. Forgetting to say thank you IS bad manners, but fretting about it is childish.

I sent a review to Monolith once that was very blunt. I knew it at the time, too, but felt if I said any apologies up-front that it would dimish what I felt were some important points. He later told me himself that he thought it was a bit harsh, and would have been perfectly justified in telling me to shove it. Instead, he discussed the ideas with me on the merits of the comments/ideas themselves, and not on their "feel good" quotient. The result was that he has continues to send me drafts, and I find great value in them. I haven't done a good job of thanking him for his time, either, but he hasn't seemed to mind. In the end, through helping him I've learned a lot myself, and he's given me some stuff to think about in my WIP that has dramatically changed how I am going to approach it (and I don't even think he realizes he did that!!).

So we can sit around fretting and arguing and whining about he said/she said, or we can simply understand that someone is gaining from our posts, and that we are getting some good stuff ourselves. it all comes full circle.

We're all here to help each other, I think that's a given. If Christine quits the board then none of us will be any worse off, but hatrack will suffer greatly. If HSO quits, I say the same. These are both great minds we can grow much from. If one of them leaves because they can't learn to deal with the other, we will all suffer a loss.

The same could be said for countless others on this board. We should all be polite, but we should also relax (my number one rule for my trumpet students) and assume the best, then move on with a smile.

Happy thoughts, folks. Let's work on getting our names on the shelves of bookstores, because isn't that why we're really here???

quote:

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One of the biggest problems with email, chat rooms, web forums, and IM is that it cannot carry the personal visual and aural cues that a face to face conversation carries. One cannot sense the change in tone or expression that can make a term like "I'm sorry" mean something great or something terrible. One cannot see that someone has had a bad day or that said person may be tired, hurried, or otherwise out of sorts. Relying on this forum for emotion is a mistake.

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Someday, in the not-to-distant future, everyone will have video chat and issues like this will be avoided -- or escalated when we actually do get someone's intent for once. In some cases, it's better to not know what someone really meant and let ambiguity win the day.

In other words, as long as we have some form of communication, there will always be some way to misunderstand that communication.

It's no different in real life. People say things all the time that are taken the wrong way.

For the most part, I agree with your post. But I also think the conflict we've seen played out here can be a valuable resource in writing conflict and communication issues for your characters in your stories. However, in that regard, we've barely scratched the surface of it.

Growing up: We never really do grow up. I didn't feel grown up until I hit 30. And by that measure, at 50 I'll probably feel that I was a cocky brat back when I was 30. We often get wiser with experience, but many of us old folks (I'm only 33; I'm not old!) have years of experience at being petty and childish. There's no excuse for it; we certainly no better. Practice makes perfect, I suppose. And just because we should know better doesn't mean we'll make the right choice every time.

But (to use a line from the Matrix) we are only human. We will all make mistakes. Some of us will make bigger and dumber mistakes than others. I don't know if I always succeed, but I do try to learn from the ones I make.

I guess that's the point, really: Learning.... from everything we do (or don't do, as is sometimes the case). This includes writing stories, and everyday life. Take from it what you will.

Again, more invaluable writing fodder... does your character(s) learn from mistakes? I'm not saying every story should focus on morality and judgment, but it is a common theme in many stories for good reason: Because that's what life is for a lot of us. Mistake after mistake and what you do after that matters. Learning.