3 pages of maps 4 pages of dramatis personae 2 pages of poetry 6 pages of prologue (introducing 4 characters) 1 page of history from a book on military campaigns 1/2 page of poetry
Then Chapter 1 starts. 6 more characters are introduced before 1 of the first 4 characters from the prologue enters the picture, 10 pages into chapter 1.
Thus 10 characters are introduced before the story really gets started.
And in the 4th paragraph of chapter one, the following:
quote:The fishergirl nodded faintly. As befitted the lowborn, they waited by the roadside, the old woman burdened beneath a rough sack filled with turnips, the girl with a heavy basket balanced on her head.
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I'm frustrated. Not only does this author get away with all the things I've been told are 'no-no's, but he gets away with silly little mistakes like the one above. How on earth could you 'nod faintly' with a heavy basket balanced on your head?
I think it's time for a more in-depth discussion of the use of prologues, poetry, maps, excerpts from dry and dusty tomes, rapidly introducing multiple characters, etc in our work. Something that goes beyond, 'don't do it'. Obviously, it works and is acceptable to editors.
posted
I was reading where one editor for TOR books clamied that they would sometimes randomly publish a new author. Not on the value of his current work but on the hope (and random chance)he would improve and write blockbusters.
Just because it's published says nothing of it's worth. The amount of crap in the bookstores overwhelms me.
On whim one day I read a chapter from one book at random from the "C" part of fantasy section, then walked over to the "s" section and read a chapter at random. The chracters names and settings were so close it was as if I was reading the same book.
posted
No offense, but sometimes I wonder if it's just pickiness.
Does the average reader pick up a book in a bookstore and say, 'Hey this has a prologue!'? If the reader picks it up and they enjoy the tale, they might not even notice.
posted
First of all, I would say that if you had a heavy basket on your head, the only way you would be able to nod is 'faintly'.
The use of maps, poetry, character introductions, all of that stuff, is typically dictated by the publishers themselves. They see an epic story being told, and they immediately think Tolkien. So it follows that they will ask the author to add those sections, often teaming the author up with an illustrator for maps and chapter headings.
And as for those random authors being chosen, they're called 'Cinderellas', and in many ways it's a publicity stunt. Consider that one particular author who wrote Message in a Bottle, and other sappy pieces of crap just like it. His publisher gave him a million dollar contract, and the buzz from it sold the book out flat the moment it hit the stands. Had it not been for the press, that book would have been in the discount bin in a month.
posted
Ok, so some people win the publishing lottery. Should any of us bank on that happening to us? I'm not. I know that for any of my work to ever get published, it will have to find it's way past the slush pile based on quality.
Want another good example of authors getting away with thing we never would? Pandora's Star is 800 pages of uncut, overkill. The several chapters that explained the aliens history, and how it came to be what it is, was flat out dull. To top the whole book off...was the cliffhanger at the end.
I think we should think more on the lines of why we don't want to get away with the things that annoy us. We should strive to improve our writing so it doesn't read like it was written by an amature. I believe most everyone here wants to be published, so concentrait on what it takes to make your writing what it should be.
posted
I liked Pandora's star. It took a bit of getting used to, considering that I was hoping for more of the type of story he wrote with the Night's Dawn trilogy, but it was still good. The thing about the alien's background was essential, I thought. It explained just how different they were from humans, and what a threat they were to us. But I'm a fan of P.F. Hamilton, so I'm biased. The only thing of his that I was slightly disappointed in was Fallen Dragon.
Posts: 331 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I haven't read Gardens of the Moon but from your description, it is formula epic fantasy. And, as others have pointed out, epic fantasy = Tolkien. Part of the formula is deep history, maps, lots of characters and so on. I (admittedly cynically) view the entire field as Harlequins for elves.
The question comes down to this. Are you writing to get published, or are you writing because you have something to say? If you're writing with hopes for a career, or at least as a career supplement, then one might argue that you are better off observing the formulaic customs for your chosen genre and submitting to publishers with a demonstrated appetite for same. (The other route is harder.)
If, on the other hand, you are writing because you have something to say, then fidelity to your message is the watchword of the day. And once you've crafted your tale/thesis with whatever conventions, style and content serve it best, you go off and hunt for a publisher willing to view your work on its own, rather than as this month's publishable content in their never-ending flow of similar content.
At least, that's the way I see the game.
Jefficus
*Edited to remove ambiguity of a phrase.
[This message has been edited by Jefficus (edited January 26, 2005).]
posted
Perhaps she could nod faintly because like Zaphod Beeblebrox she has two heads.
Anyway, that's why I generally don't read all the stuff in the front before I start on the real story. (I know a lot of people read every last word, I just can't bring myself to. Besides, I already know the ending of the part that starts: "If you purchased this book without a cover..." So why bother?) If the story is interesting, I will read it even without knowing the background information, and I can always go back to those pages if something is confusing me.
posted
Of course research research reasearch the publisher you are trying to sell. See what they want and format accordingly. I wouldn't try to write to spec per se. But I definitely would try to get as close to what the publisher likes.
Posts: 451 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I've never even suggested that you "can't" have a prologue, nor have I spoken against maps and other similar resources being in the beginning of a book. I have said that it is usually better to save a glossary or other appendices for the back of the book, but that's about as far as I'd go on the subject.
Two, if the author has handled it badly, showing me irrelevant maps, a poorly written and uninteresting prologue, contrived "documents", and so forth, then I judge the author's work on that basis.
Oh, and while it is possible to nod while balancing a heavy basket on your head, I don't recommend you try it. It really isn't a good idea, particularly if you happen to be a young girl.
posted
If a book has 16 1/2 pages of stuff before chapter 1 begins, I probably begin reading on p. 17.
Maria von Trapp, in her autobiography, got around this, with me. She called her preface "The Chapter Before the First," and admitted she called it that because she never read prefaces and she wanted people to read this. But by the time I read that much, I wanted to know why she cared so much, and so I was hooked!
posted
Is Steve Erikson a popular author? I've never heard of him.
It doesn't matter that much one way or another. Lot of people get published whose books suck. First of all, much to my dismay it seems the best way to get published is to have connections. I never heard of the random new author getting published. I have to believe that the editor at least picks a new author whose work has some merit, though.
On the other hand, if Erikson is an established author he might have gotten sloppy.
One of my least favorite things for an author to do is to introduce ten characters before getting me into the story. I almonst never remember any of their names of who they are because I have no relevant detail. Furthermore, I usually end up putting the book down. I'm not one of those who finishes a bad book...life's too short.
posted
Tor fantasy just picked him up, but the beginning of this series was already being published in Canada (I think it's up to 6 books now, out of a planned 10). The second book: Deadhouse Gates, was actually nominated for a world fantasy award.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
TOR's pretty good about buying up epics. Look at Jordan. They've been publishing him since day one. I think he's got a couple editors bearing children for him over there.
Posts: 331 | Registered: Jan 2005
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