posted
What is yall's opinions on the best means of opening the short story?
I receive loads of stories with big info dumps and setups. SOme of which would be fine in a novel. But I feel that in short fiction averaging 5000 words or less short, fast and to the point starters work best.
What do you feel is the best balance between Resist the Urge to Explain and this is why this is happening?
As a writer how much feedback about your story do you like to see from the submissions editor? Do you like or hate suggestions?
posted
I think info dumps are ALWAYS a problem, regardless of the length of the piece or whether the info is being dumped in the beginning of the story or further in.
[This message has been edited by Beth (edited February 26, 2005).]
posted
A form letter just doesn't tell the writer anything about why his work was rejected. Without knowing the problem, it's hard to find the solution. But like Mike said, it gets overwhelming to try to provide feedback to every author. I gather that most editors settle into a pattern of only giving suggestions to the writers they consider most likely to later submit something publishable in their mag (when the editor has the time and inclination to do even that much). If you are willing and able to give feedback to writers about what you would like to see changed for a work to be publishable in your mag, I applaud you and hope you can keep doing it.
Posts: 491 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I have only hated a personalized rejection once...recently, Strange Horizons told me that they liked the story but it "didn't hold together well." As a comment it was cryptic, useless, and just negative enough to make me feel bad without providing any real information. It was like a bad critique only worse because it comes from someone with a little bit of power.
Aside from that, however, I have always loved comments. My most recent personal rejection came from Chizine. The editor seemed to really like the story but it was told in an episodic format that she personally didn't care for. She said she was sure it would find a good home somewhere else. (I smiled pretty big about that.)
Most comments are in between. Almost every story I send out gets a "Nice writing but..." The part after the but is negotiable. Strange Horizons (the one that gave me the worst personal reject) also gave me my first personal reject which suggested a change on a story that I went ahead and did before sending off to another editor (who has not had it for 8 months and counting....grrrrr, but I know it's been passed up to the top and he's thinking about it.)
I had a suggestion from Dark Energy to switch POV characters. I thought it was a wonderful idea and still do; unfortunately, I haven't been able to get excited about rewriting the story despite an invitation to send it back.
I got a rewrite request from Apex Digest that has been put off in part because of my novel frenzy and in part because I can't figure out how to do what he asked....that one I'm still determined to work on though because I continue to like the story.
Guess that's a long way of saying "it depends." I almost never dislike getting personal feedback. If the editor takes the time to say anything it usually means your work was darn good. The trouble is that now so many of my stories get personal feedback without being accepted that I am frustrated to no end by the "almost but not quite..." response. I guess almost isn't good enough anymore.
Oh yeah, and short stories should definitely start quickly. Unless the setup itself is exciting and sets up an implicit promise then you need to find a different way to tell the story or find a different story to tell. Information that is told rather than shown can come into the beginning of a short story as well as a novel, IMO, but in the former in lengths no longer than a sentence and in the latter in lengths no longer than a paragraph.
posted
One thing that helps me resist the urge to info dump is the realization that even in stories that are driven by concept or plot, it's the characters that keep the reader involved. The fact of the matter is a reader doesn't need an info dump to care about the character. The best way is to get them hooked first, then when they come back for more make them pay for it .
Posts: 66 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The info dump does not even have to be a big one to irritate me. I personally hold Robert Jordan responsible for this style. He constantly does this commentary and historical notations on characters. Of course he sells a lot of books so lotsa of writers want to imitate him.
When it comes to beginning writers trying to imitate Jordan (as in the case of a story I reviewed last night) its terrible. Jordan has a way that uses romance novel elements to build his stories that many people like. The newbies just don't get what he is doing but they sure try and duplicate it.
posted
If you want to give advice on stories, but are getting enough submissions to make it tiring (and it wouldn't take many) you might want to try a checklist rejection. That way you could give some info about what you didn't like without spending much time at it, and then put a few actual comments on the stories that had some merit.
As to where to begin a story: I think Card's MICE quotient is a pretty good guide. Unless the setting is unusually arresting, I would always start out with the POV character, just when SOMETHING is about to happen. The "SOMETHING" depends on the type of story. (The setting should also be present in the first paragraph, because you don't want the character floating in isolation, but the emphasis is on the character.)
I have been annoyed with comments, but it's still better than no comments at all. Except for the time when the editor of Fantasy Book told me I sent him the story in order to spy on him.
posted
There was a microcamera embedded in a microdot masquerading as a period on page three. It's a standard spying technique, everyone knows that! Posts: 1041 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
He told me that I had mixed the pages in order to determine if they actually read unsolicited MSS. I think what happened is someone there dropped the story on the floor and put it back in the wrong order. When I got it back, the order was something like 1, 10, 3, 6, 12 ...
"The next time you see fit to do me the discourtesy of mixing the pages to see if you story gets read, it won't be." It's been nearly 20 years, and I remember it verbatim.
posted
Hmm, no wonder I'm a failure as a spy. *sigh* Those microcameras are expensive. Oh, well. Back to normal-college-kid stuff!
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
That is honestly the dumbest accusation I've ever heard. I mean, this guy must regularly fall for the old trick where the tenth page is turned upside-down, if he thinks that someone would have to completely scramble their manuscript to determin how far he'd read.
Heck, all you really have to do is dust the thing for fingerprints when you get it back. Even though you might not be able to get ID quality prints, you can still see whether someone has actually read it. The problem is understanding why anyone would do such a thing in any case.
posted
I believe that in a short story, the info dumps should not be used, but more implicitly stated then just blatently shown. If they are just stated, the reader does not get as much out of it, because they are not thinking. That is my opinion, but I think it is personnally left to the author to decide.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Personally, I think that sometimes info dumps work and other times they don't. I've read a few great novels that start right off the bat with info dumps, but they never deterred me from reading further. And then there have been times, of course, where the info dump was a problem and bogged down the story. But I also think it depends on the reader. I've read some comments here about the first 13 lines of someone's story being too info dumpy. Sometimes I agree with these comments, other times I don't. Just like art, I think it's highly subjective--sometimes I like Impressionism, other times I don't. It depends on what the subject of the painting, drawing, or sculpture is. Sometimes I like info dumps, sometimes I don't. It depends on where the author wants to go with the story, how complex it is, and what type of person the lead character is--if that makes any sense.
And about feedback on rejected stories, yes, I do like feedback. Unfortunately, I rarely get any. When I do, it's always, "This was an excellent story, but we already have other stories we are considering right now. We do, however, recommend you to send your work to other publishers." (<Or editors, as the case may be.) I'm not quite sure what to make of that. Does this mean they really liked what I wrote and they really do want me to try other publishers? Or is this just the reply they send out to all the authors that they reject?
posted
But we are talking about a short story, right? Can someone give me an example of a published short story with an info dump? Maybe I'm just way behind the times, but I thought a short story was structured around "The effect of the single impression" or some term like that which Poe perfected (but did not name).
I guess Cheever's "The Country Husband" is very info-dump like. But it is to create a milieau of a place where nothing happens, so that when something happens there are a lot of ripples.
posted
I liked what Suzanne Clarke did in Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell. She added footnotes so that if you wanted the info dump you could read the footnote, or skip it and keep reading the story. However, I don't think this would work outside of the style she chose.
Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Just goes to prove, Eric, that even the most widely accepted no-noes can be yes-yeses. How long is the story?
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
About 6900 words. So it is a fairly long short story. Being semi-hard SF, it also has a few more infodumps, where engineers explain stuff to the uninformed.
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I'd guess that the semi-hard nature of your story accounts for the length, Eric. So length is another consideration when dealing with infodumps, especially in short stories.
Although he's writing more about novels than short stories, Donald Maass, in his Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook, has this to say:
quote:Over and over authors bog down their beginnings with setup and backstory....Perhaps it is because while writing the opening chapters the novelist is getting to know his characters....The fact is, the author needs to know these things, of course, but the reader does not. The reader needs a story to begin.
and
quote:Backstory is less important than most novelists think. If you must include it at all, place it so that it answers a long-standing question, illuminating some side of a character rather than just setting it up.
posted
Since this topic started out talking about intros for short stories, I decided to take a look at some of my favourites and the length of the intros before the main action of the story begins.
The Cask of Amontillado - 16%
The Lady or the Tiger - 37%
Leiningen versus the Ants - 0%
The Most Dangerous Game - 0%
The Rocking-horse Winner - 12%
*****
To calculate what percentage the intro made-up, measured the number of words from the beginning of the story to the beginning of the main story action and divided that number by the overall word count for the story.
I don't think there is a right or wrong length for an intro. It all depends on the story and the skill of the writer. Some writers are skilled at proving plenty of information and backstory, without boring their audience; you can read a story that is nearly half info-dump and still find it engaging.
Other writers lack the skill to keep their dumps informative and interesting. Finding ways to weave ideas, concepts and nuances into the story seamlessly is one way around info dumping.
Another thing that makes a difference, is the nature of the story. The more intellectual/cerebral the story, the more likely I am to accept large chunks of information.
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Strange Horizons (the one that gave me the worst personal reject) also gave me my first personal reject which suggested a change on a story that I went ahead and did before sending off to another editor (who has not had it for 8 months and counting....grrrrr, but I know it's been passed up to the top and he's thinking about it.)
