Josh

I write because that is who I am and I will always write whether I'm published or not, but I also do not pretend to be altruistic. I have dreams of being able to help support my family through my writing. If compromise is what it takes, again, assuming that the compromises are within the limits I already stated, then compromise is okay with me.

I guess my point is that sometimes what someone else might want isn't what we might want. So there is always the choice of refusing, and not being published. Or doing as they wish, but in a way that works with the story. I would think that if someone was not published, and by altering their story to get it on the shelves, that would be a start. I've read a couple books that had semi-sex situations, and they did not cheapen the story. Harlaquin style...well, that would kill it for me.

It is a choice, but if the money is there as well as the marketing, couldn't there be a way to make it more what they wanted while still holding on to the main story?

Realisticly, I would believe a good author could work in things that may not be within the main objective and still keep the story a good one.

If you were to go at changes knowing that once your are done the story will suck...it probably will.

Why?

Because the only possible reason for the scenario you present is that I'm a celebrity of some kind, and one not regarded as a competent writer within the industry. As God is my witness, should I become a celebrity for reasons other than my writing, I will not publish anything using a conventional publisher.

If there's something really important that I have to write a book about, I may self-publish or sponsor/endorse a book that I feel says the same things my book would have said (but better). But I will not be part of the whoredom of publishers making money off of celebrity publishing. I believe that it's wrong and demeans the entire industry, serving only to pump up the already inflated vanity of those that have already become famous for reasons totally unrelated to their writing abilities.

Plus, I don't have a problem with sex. I don't write it into my books because unless you're writing romance it seems to make it less marketable. I'm trying to think about my current project...a murder mystery in which there is no doubt that the hero and heroine will have sex shorly after the close of the book but I never describe it. If the publisher needed it spelled out then why not? I will simply have to mark the book as NC-17 (which I didn't write it for anyway).

So let's forget sex for a moment. I think I know why you picked it, because there is an assumption that "moral" people will not want to write about it because it goes against an ideal, a standard. (That we should all be chaste? <eg> ) I'd like to think I have standards, but I will write about sex. In fact, I have even written erotica and I found it quite enjoyable. (All right, to be honest I don't plan to sell it and I haven't shown it to anyone but my husband. )

Anyway, why don't we move on to the heart of the matter? The real thing you want to ask? You want to know, I assume, what we would do if a publisher offered us an advance and a contract that would launch our careers but expected certain changes from the book, perhaps even changes that go against a certain moral foundation, but definitely changes that cut into the heart of the book.

For me, that might be things like turning my main character into a 22-year-old hot little flirt instead of the 38-year-old mother getting over a divorce. Among other things, this would require an entire rewrite because it is a different character. Also, I have difficulty writing flirts. Finally, it undermines a couple of major themes.

I don't know....from what I've heard I still find this hard to believe. It seems to me that if a publisher wants such sweeping changes they wouldn't have contacted you about your book. They would buy another book. They get lots and lots of books. The way I understood it, there is room to compromise with a publisher of a novel, that you will be expected to make changes but that you can make them in you own way and you can even say no.

But if they wanted me to do that, sure, I'd trade that for a lifetime of security.

Now if you asked if I'd be willing to write like that for the rest of my life in exchange for that payoff? No. Or would I be willing to write like that for the hope of that kind of payoff? No. But trash one book? Sure.

I have a project....THE PROJECT....that I have been working on (off and on) for almost 17 years. It has grown with me, developing as and changing I learned to write. It is currently a planned (but not written) trilogy. THAT book is my baby. That is the one about which I make this mistake.

Josh

Besides, if that publisher thought it was good enough to consider if only I made a few changes, there's probably someone else out there who will think it's good enough to consider without those changes, or with ones that I feel comfortable with. So I'd know that I could get it published, as soon as I found the right publisher. Obviously, though, that one wasn't it.

If the changes the publishers ask would turn your writing into second rate crap I would not do it. I would take the offer to my agent and have him present the book to several other houses. If they are willing to offer that money they know the book would sell WITHOUT the changes. And if one publisher would publish so would another. Especially if you offered to cut the advance down to 200k and not have the additions. I know of several writers who did this (although way less money about 10 to 20k advance) who just by letting their agents work protected their writing and were paid.

Why wouldn't I do it- because it would be a career suicide. Just think of the different authors you know who went the way of pandering and after a year or so of mediocre pop crap they are now nobodies.

With a quarter mil. at stake I would definitely have an agent negotiate some things for me and might even go with that house at a lower advance if it means protecting my interests as a writer.

Secondly, I don't care whether the changes are really offensive to me. They could be completely neutral changes like making my character Irish rather than Spanish or setting it in Seattle rather than Norfolk. The key point is that they want this hypothetical book that badly and don't want the one I've actually written at all. That tells me that they don't have my best interests at heart.

If we were talking about a modest but nice advance and inoffensive changes that didn't seem really necessary to me personally, then I'd be suspicious enough to ask elsewhere. But a quarter million and changes obviously designed to $#!*can my writing? No. Absolutely not. What kind of gullible moron would accept that?

And don't tell me that "newbies" are getting these kinds of advances in exchange for these kinds of consessions. It just isn't happening. Writers that have only broken out in the last couple of years may be "new" (as in "hot, fresh, new"), but they aren't newbies. And they're still fools if their whoring themselves at that point, even more so then the people that wonder if they'll ever be published at all.

At first, I thought I wouldn't do it. However, I soon noticed that I would really REALLY love to wake up one morning and find myself faced with a quandry like that...so I guess my answer would be yes, after all.

Faced with that situation, I'd give a hearty 'yes'... and publish under a pseudonym if I felt the the work ended up being well below what I would be comfortable having associated with my name. Financial reality tends to trump all else in the long run and a lot of authors bolster their income by works presented under other names.

So maybe the question would be easier to answer if it involved a ghost writing opportunity.

Ghost writing, hmmm, ok, if the money was good and I could at least use it as a reference...I could deal with that as well.

At the moment, publishing isn't a great concern. Although I would like to think my stories are good enough...I still have more things to learn.

I can relate to this concept very easily since I have over the past several years had to mutilate my programs to make clients happy. The hardest part was getting over the fact that as long as the result works, the details become less important. I'm getting paid, and I can still be proud of the overall success...if not all the details.

When it comes to money, and publishers, I think I would believe a major publisher would only ask for changes that would make the story better. It is the business they are in. Of course I could be wrong.

Josh

And I'm not calling anyone here a gullible moron unless a) this has already happened to you personally and b) you cheerfully accepted without misgivings. If a publisher makes any of you this kind of offer, and you don't feel any qualms and decide to accept, then feel free to post back here about it and I'll freely call you an idiot (I will try to make the "I told you so" as nice as possible after you discover the codicil, though).

I'll ask this, though. How many of you have gotten those emails from oh so desperate Africans looking for the assistance of a trustworthy American to help them move their enormous assets out of their variously destabilized economies. How many of you have actually bought into such a scheme? To be sensitive, I won't call you a gullible moron without first saying that I'm very sorry that something like that happened to you.

Look, I don't know what I said to get you all offended. I said that anyone that would unquestioningly accept a deal like that was a gullible moron. But I could just as easily have gotten on a moral high horse about how you were an immoral whoreson for even asking the question.

Oh...wait, I get it. You wanted to start an argument over whether or not "selling out" was immoral. Duh! And you're all upset because you don't get to pose as being all cool and rational for being willing to sell yourself cheaply. It's like that story, "we've already established what you are, now we're just haggling over the price."

Josh

Josh

Josh

“And you're all upset because you don't get to pose as being all cool and rational for being willing to sell yourself cheaply. It's like that story, "we've already established what you are, now we're just haggling over the price."

These are just from the one response. They seem quite brutal enough to warrent anger from anyone. Now that I've talked Joshua down from the belltower - as he has done for me once or twice - I am ending my involvement with this subject. Back to the peace of just watching.

If I sell my soul just to get published, what would be expected of me in the future? My reader base would expect more of the same and would be disappointed when I published my next, loftier novel. My publisher, having once manipulated me, would expect to be able to do so again, and again, and again. Other publishers, who would (if they are worth their salt) decide whether to publish me based on my previous work, would also expect the same of me.

No. I don't think I'd do it.

Maybe, as has been suggested, as a ghost writer or under a pseudonym. Just for the money.

But really, where does that get you? You'd still be judged by your previous work when you seek out another publishing opportunity. The interview goes like this:

"Yeah, I wrote "Heart Torn in Two" under a pen name," you say.
"Oh! That sold quite well, didn't it?" the publisher/editor says.
"Well, yes. But I was really hoping to be able to publish something quite different..."
"I see. And what did you have in mind?"
"I've been sitting on this manuscript for a couple of years. It's about a man who is beaten down by life. He finds some thread of strength deep within his soul..."
"So, it's nothing like "Heart Torn in Two?""
"No. Not really."
"Hmm. Well, Mr. Leone. I'll have to talk this over with my partners. Why don't you call back in a month or so."

I think I'd rather vantiy publish.

Rather than close or delete this topic, I am considering deleting certain posts.

It comes down to this. I screwed up. I let myself get personal and cruel and no matter what my reasons were, or how justified I may have felt at the time, there was no excuse for it. I was going to just leave it at an appology for dragging the rest of you into what had become a personal issue with another poster, but I just could not leave my post up. It bothered me too much that I had lost it like that. That is not like me normally, it was entirely wrong of me, and I am sorry to everyone who saw it. I hope this thread will be deleted, but if it is not, I understand that as well.

Anyway, back to the topic, I think that my answer for "ghostwriting" should probably be clarified a bit. If I'm doing something that is going to be presented as being representative of another entity, then it's not my business to get all fartsy about my "art". Of course, I have to deal with the repercussions of being associated with the project in question, so I wouldn't ghost-write for Nazis or anything like that. If somebody asks me to paint a house and I ask what color to paint it and the customer chooses forest green with imperial red trim, it's not my place to insist that it should be egg white with colonial blue trim when it's not my house.

And I don't disbelieve in doing work for money. It's true that I don't usually need money, and I work mainly for other considerations most of the time, but I'm a big proponent of money as a means of regularizing economic exchange, and I don't make any artificial distinction between goods and services.

Seriously, thanks to everyone for the encouraging words. I'm glad to know I haven't poisoned the well, so to speak.

I think the question of whether you'd prostitute yourself and your writing and for how much has been discussed.

I have to confess that I tend to dislike such topics, mainly because I would rather not spend forum space on topics that encourage people to think about how low they will go. I'd prefer discussions on how they can grow and reach and climb as high as they can.