posted
I must preface this message by saying I'm not looking to stir up an argument or discussion about whether men can write for women or vice versa. In sifting through the archives, I can see that topic has been covered at length in the past.
What I would LIKE to find out is, what methods do others use to do a reality check to make sure your opposite-gender characters seem real?
For instance, I have a character who is male. He became a monk at age 16 (this is fantasy fiction, not set in modern day). When faced with his first act of intimacy with a woman, I had written him agonizing over this decision which would have a profound impact in his life.
A male friend of mine, who is also a writer, said that was a girlie point of view. He told me that when men get right up to that threshold of intimacy, there is nothing else on their minds - that their minds literally go blank except their need to complete the act. And then when they are done they think of food.
Now, this seems somewhat like a cynical generalization to me, but who am I - as a woman - to question a man's statement about how men think?
I'm a bit at a loss as to how to double check this kind of information. Should I presume that one man can speak for all men? Or should I take a random poll among several men and average the results?
posted
To be honest, I've never really given it much thought. I guess I kind of operate on the philosophy that no two people are alike. If you give credence to stereotypes, your characters will probably end up bland and cliche.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
My brother's a monk and he agonises over everything - or he did, not so much now. So if he's the agonising worying about things sort of person I'd say that it would read real as long as you write it real.
Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I have my dad read it. When he sees something that a man simply wouldn't do, he calls BS and I fix it. I usually seem to do pretty good though.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I don't particularly worry about how I'm portraying gender. I worry all the time about how I'm portraying character, regardless of gender, and rely on other people's opinions to let me know how successful I've been.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Being male, I think the guy you talked to is on the farther end of the spectrum. In our society, yes, any young male about to have sex will be more concerned with doing it right than whether they should. This does not apply to all males. I think it has to do with intellegence more than anything. Men who use thier minds for something other than worrying about the next time they sleep with a woman might put more thought into what they do. It still wouldn't compensate for hormones and normal urges, but it can offset the "lack of thought" that a vast majority of young men will have.
If you were to take a man who reads all the time, that man would more likely think about what they are doing and the concequences of doing it. Of course the number of men falling into this category is small. I've know many guys who think about sex the majority of the time. Needless to say, they are the most abundant variety.
If you want your character to agonize over whether he should have sex or not, he just needs to act like a non-typical male. He would most liekly not be a popular type of person, and it would need to be backed up with some reason why he would be concerned. Religious beliefs or concerns for not having children would be two I would believe. So before he reached that point there would have to be some justification why he would not just agree and do it.
Your character is not impossible, it just sounds like he is lacking the proper reasons to go against the norm.
posted
Usually when I have sex, I'm far more concerned about doing it right than whether I should be doing it at all. I don't think that's a guy thing.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
also I read all the time. In my experience, the correlation you're trying to draw doesn't worke, whether you draw it along genender lines or literacy lines.
quote:Your character is not impossible, it just sounds like he is lacking the proper reasons to go against the norm
If the character is a monk in the tradition of most Western religions then it is the norm for him to remain celebate. So one would have to write in a lot of reasons for him to even consider having relations. I don't think this is a male/female thing so much as a cultural thing.
posted
Many Eastern religions have celibate traditions too.
But if your character is serious enough about being chaste, he has to agonize well before any but the most naive female character would be likely to start agonizing. If he doesn't agonize before, say; being alone with her, or sitting next to her, saying "I'm in love with you", certainly before kissing her and so forth, he isn't really ever going to get around to it.
As a chaste but not celibate type, I start thinking about where a situation is going well before a girl would do the same. Otherwise, I simply wouldn't be chaste. I might say that I'm trying, but all the trying in the world doesn't help if you put off the "agonizing" till that part of your brain is turned off.
Now, if something happens to break the mood, a guy might "agonize" after he'd already decided to be alone with an attractive girl in a situation of temptation. Like, if he's Catholic and she has a big crucifix in her room, something like that might cause him to agonize when faced with the immediate prospect of intimacy. But typically, for any given "act of intimacy", the "agonizing" has to be done well ahead of time for a guy, otherwise it just won't get done at all. It might be done later if the guy really got taken by surprise, like a naked woman jumped his bones in the middle of the night or something. But I think most guys already have a plan for what to do in that event (it isn't the same plan for all guys, I'm just saying that this will not surprise a guy as much as the relative probability of it happening would tend to suggest).
In a more general sense, if you're writing a POV for any character and don't feel confident that you know what the character would think in a given situation (and a character of the opposite gender would tend to be one of those situations), then get a few people that would know to read it and tell you how convincing it is. Unless, of course, those people aren't going to be part of your audience. If this is a romance, for instance, then there is almost no need for the guy to think like a guy. If it's...quite prurient, there's very little need to make it convincing to men with much practical knowledge of being chaste.
Don't take an average. See how many people mention it independently. Note whether they rank it as being more implausible than other things they caught. See if what they say makes sense.
For instance, I've never been on the "threshhold of intimacy" with a woman and felt any reluctance to go further. I do have some specialized reflexes for situations of that nature, but those don't involve conscious consideration to leave them active. If they're bypassed or inactive, that's that. Any conscious control over whether or not I get intimate has to be exercised in advance.
I'm not sure how different this is for women, but it is different.
posted
In a dungons and dragons style setting, a monk is a warrior who specializes in fighting and mental discipline. They can get married, have kids and can very easily be evil. If you think of the guy in the old Kung Fu show many years ago, he was a monk.
A religious monk from the middle ages was more of a schollar that chose learning and faith over normal life. For this type of monk, their seclusion and restraint from sexual contact was supposed to allow them to focus on their learning without distraction.
quote:A religious monk from the middle ages was more of a schollar that chose learning and faith over normal life. For this type of monk, their seclusion and restraint from sexual contact was supposed to allow them to focus on their learning without distraction.
I've spent a proper amount of time developing my monk's inner conflict over his attraction to this particular woman. It just seemed out of character for him to suddenly blow off all the concerns he has had, just because a guy told me that's how guys are.
I guess it goes to show ya, men don't always know what other men think. (Women, on the other hand, are quite predictable, once you understand the pattern of logic...) heh heh.
My thanks to the male input I've received here. I suppose the answer to my original question is that it pays to have several men review the situation when I have questions on the proper response based on gender.
posted
If the guy really had a confict over his relationship with this woman, then it would seem out of character for him to get into "the situation" in the first place. But that perspective depends on how broad the definition of "the situation" is. You need more guys to read your actual text.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:He told me that when men get right up to that threshold of intimacy, there is nothing else on their minds - that their minds literally go blank except their need to complete the act.
This is a perfectly believable point of view, but only in a narrow window of time. I'd say some (not all) human males go through a phase like this somewhere between ages 12 and 18. It does not last a lifetime, and there is a strong biological component.
But I agree with others here that there is also a psychological component that comes from personal experience. Maybe the character hasn't seen a woman since he hit puberty and didn't even realize he was experiencing sexual urges. Maybe the character has developed a selfish streak and doesn't think of others until all his personal urges are satisfied.
Regardless, I think either case is plausible. Depict the scene as you envisioned it and I would find it believable. I would also believe the description suggested by your friend, though that would change my feelings about your character.
quote:And then when they are done they think of food.
Also believable, but not the only possible choice. Some will think of sleep, others will think of booze, money, golf, whatever. And a surprising number will find themselves hopelessly, heartbreakingly in love with the women.
posted
I would agree mostly with those who say sometimes a man does think that way about intimacy acts, they want to be in love before stepping over, some want to be quick and have food afterward. Who is the character, that is the question that needs to be answered. I would say I think and follow my gut before I act. (I am a male) Follow the character, because sometimes they are abnormal to the world's society of men.
Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:I guess it goes to show ya, men don't always know what other men think. (Women, on the other hand, are quite predictable, once you understand the pattern of logic...) heh heh.
Logic? Illogic I can believe... I have determined women set their rules, and will change them all at a moments notice if they feel any man has figured the rules out.
posted
GAAH! He figured out the ultimate rule! Now we'll have to change that rule, too, which will ruin our rule-changing abilities. Curse you, LDS, for foiling our insidious plot! Posts: 437 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I like the idea posted earlier: the agonizing comes first. Then, as desire kicks in, he'll want to be in the moment, shoving any doubts to the back of his mind. (If he doesn't stop agonizing, it won't work anyway.)
On the general question: female viewpoint characters don't come naturally to me. I think I do ok at the Maria von Trapp-like spunky but naive young woman, but the others are a challenge. I don't write many of them. Aside from my just-finished novel, I think I've done 4, ever.
I think I can tell if I got 'em right. Maybe it's different coming from my side: I can imagine someone saying, "no woman would every say/do that!" but it's obvious things like using power tools for food preparation, or dropping cigarette ashes on the carpet and claiming it's good for the rug. Or being proud of bodily noises.
I can think of 2 female characters that did the same male habit: cigar smoking. The Mayor of Terminus in Foundation's Edge was one. I swear, I think Asimov wrote the Mayor as a man and then did a search-and-replace on gender pronouns to make him a her. Then there's Fairy Hardcastle in Lewis's That Hideous Strength. There was no way you could mistake Hardcastle for a man: she was an un-feminine woman, but she was definitely a woman, and in fact reminds me of a policewoman I used to know.
posted
I don't think that I do females very well, but strangly most of my stories are about women. (And much of their names start with J but that's beside the point.) Perhaps I'm just trying to get better at it.
There was a line in a movie that I didn't like so I forgot the title, when a male writer was asked how he wrote women so well. He said that he took a man and took away all reason. (or something like that.)
posted
At the end of the day I agree with all of you who said people are just people. How you react to a situation depends on what type of person you are. So you'd have to set up the character well before hand so that everyone understands where they are coming from.
Unfortuanately everyone has stereotypes about how male / female characters should behave, whereas in real life many people act completely the opposite to how their chracter would be written in a traditional novel (for example I have a very girly friend who takes great pride in her belching ability). I think interesting characters go beyond stereotypes.
Jaina, if they're onto the rules we'll have to change them with provisos! But then change them back, that way they'll all get really confused and the original plan will still be in place HAHAHAHAH (mad insane laughter) The insidious plot will survive.
[This message has been edited by limo (edited April 19, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by limo (edited April 19, 2005).]
posted
I can tell the difference in my male and female friends, based just on what they say (and without measuring voice pitch!). These bits of speech:
"Put you some fake plants all around the house. Women love that s---."
"No, really -- I _love_ the way your hair looks! Women like that clean-cut look. Trust me on this."
posted
One other common aspect I've discovered about men and women. Women tend to think 15 steps ahead and try to work out multiple possibilities. It still bothers me why women are not unbeatable chess players...but anyways. When any situation happens, women will worry about what everyone is thinking about them.
Men on the other hand only think 2 to 3 steps ahead and wing anything beyond that. In the same situation a woman is in, they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves than care what others are thinking.
Yes, this is stereotypical mostly, but it is more than often the case.
quote:... they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves than care what others are thinking.
Umm... isn't this the same thing?
As for the chess thing, I know what MY problem is... I get to a certain point with it, and then I get bored and think, "Who cares?" This prevents me from being much of a crossword puzzle nut, too. Actually, what I secretly end up thinking to myself is, "This stupid XXX is a waste of time. I could be WRITING instead of doing this stupid ____. (fill in the activity).
posted
Guys and sex: my general impression is that guys do have a stronger sex drive than women, particularly in those horrible teenage years. That is, most of the girls I know have sex for specific reasons, good or bad (relationships and love, gaining status, getting power...) whereas guys, uh, tend to have sex because they want sex really really bad. Especially at sixteen.
Please note the careful use of the phrase "tend to" in all statements.
The general setup you describe seems workable to me if, as other people have said, the character is that kind of guy. Otherwise, not so much. Also if you're talking about the general "is this right? Should I be doing this? I won't be a virgin anymore!" kind of worrying... yes, I would tend to think of that as a "girl" thing, unless you're talking about a significantly different society. There is a much, much greater social stigma attached to girls having premarital sex than guys. We are the sex which can get pregnant from this kind of fooling around, and though most of the guys I know are very moral about this, there's still a world of difference between "I got somebody else pregnant" and "I got pregnant."
Other than that... *shrug* Guys are people. Treat them as such, and you can't go too wrong. Same goes for guys writing women.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves than care what others are thinking. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Umm... isn't this the same thing?
Nope. I read it as "... they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves [to themselves] than care what others are thinking."
posted
Yeah, that's one of those things that a guy would understand. Women should understand it too, whether or not a guy feels like a fool has very little to do with what everyone else thinks of him (though that does tell him whether everyone else is a fool, which is important to a guy).
Men vary, and hormonality is part of it. But there is also a big difference in how men and women go about being chaste. I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating. If a guy is really all that set on being chaste, he doesn't get into the situation in the first place. If he does, he's already finished making his decision, and it would take something pretty significant to make him change his mind. Even if I didn't plan to get into that particular situation at that particular time, I probably already decided what I was going to do if I got there (whether I've been realistic in my planning or not is a different matter).
I don't know that this is the heart of all differences between men and women, but it is probably near the heart of at least one of them.
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I have determined women set their rules, and will change them all at a moments notice if they feel any man has figured the rules out.
