posted
I've been reading various bits of advice on writing novels and one of the things that's confusing me is when to begin selling your story.
1) Some sources I've looked at say it's best to write the novel first, then begin sending it around to various agents and editors. The idea seems to be that you have a solid product to sell.
2) Other sources say it's better to send a proposal with an outline, for various reasons. The overall idea seems to be that it wastes less time, even if the novel you produce is different from the one you sold in the proposal.
So, which is better? Or does it change as you go from amateur to professional?
posted
According to everything I have read on the subject - for your first novel, there is about one chance in a billion of selling it from an outline, unless you're a celebrity. The agent and publisher need to know that you can *finish* a novel and finish it well, not just write a good outline. Once you're a known quantity, you can get a contract based on a proposal.
Non-fiction is most often sold based on a proposal, though; that's a very different game.
[This message has been edited by Beth (edited August 18, 2005).]
posted
Everything I've read (and am heeding) about the first novel sale is what Beth says. Complete the manuscript, get the offer from the editor, and then get a reputable agent to represent you before you sign the contract.
Posts: 151 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
It is possible that the outline thing works for nonfiction, but for fiction you'd better write the novel. No one will take you seriously if you have not written the novel. Plenty of people plan novels, after all. Besides, Tor gets thousands upon thouands of completed manuscripts...why would they consider something incomplete?
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
There is, of course, a lot you can be working on now besides writing the novel - you can be researching publishers and markets and agents, and writing your outline and synopsis and cover letters, so that once the novel is done, you can hit the ground running on the sales part.
posted
...on the topic of agents, as mentioned above...
Are agents necessary? I've heard that it's better to do the research yourself on contracts than to get a mediocre agent. Any comments? Anyone with experience?
posted
Agents are also the ones who sell most novels; a lot of publishers don't accept unagented work, or only bother to look at it if they don't have anything else to read (ha ha ha).
You certainly *can* act as your own agent, but it's a lot of work. There are a number of books on the subject that should be good starting places for your research; your library probably has a few of them.
Personally I'd rather have someone with experience negotiating for me, just as I'd never be my own lawyer in a legal matter, and just as I don't cut my own hair. I want someone who knows what they're doing and who is not as emotionally invested as I would be. But if you *like* contracts and *like* negotiating and all that, it might work for you.
It's true that you don't want a bad or even mediocre agent. That's why you need to research and get a good one.
posted
Keeley, the second piece of advice is not necessarily wrong, but the last bit--"even if the novel you produce is different . . ."--is way off. For a first novel, NO ONE is going to look at anything if you haven't finished the novel, as others have said above. However, it can still save time to send a proposal, or even a query letter (which you can send to a dozen publishers at a time) in an effort to get an invitation to send the rest.
So, in short, it is DEFINITELY better to write the novel first, but when marketing, it MAY be better to send query letters or a proposal first. A few rare publishers want to see the whole manuscript right away, but most won't look at an unagented manuscript at all (though they'll respond to a query letter). You can send agents query letters, as well. Do your research--ralan.com lists book publishers, and when they won't look at an unsolicited manuscript, they say so.
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited August 19, 2005).]
posted
I agree with Lord Rickfisher. The sending out a query letter is the soliciting of your manuscript. All publishers that I know of read query letters and use them to ask for material they are looking to publish in that time frame. But even when the query letter goes out the manuscript should be complete.
Once you are famous, then just telephone, "Hey Ernie, I've got this great idea for a time travelling monkey ninja..."
posted
Established writers can sell novels on outline. Newbies can't.
I don't have the link, unfortunately, but I was once directed to a webpage where someone had analysed the advances obtained by agented and unagented writers. The agented writers consistently received higher advances, so much higher as to justify the agent's percentage of the deal.
posted
Thanks, everyone. Your answers are what my instinct was telling me, but I wanted to be sure since I haven't sold a novel yet.
As for producing a different novel, the expectation from the "send the proposal first" people seems to be that no one will expect the novel to follow the outline to every last detail. I don't think they were talking about huge structural changes. However, that's one more plus for writing the novel first, then sending it out. In my mind anyway.
Just so you guys know, I'm asking mainly for my own curiosity, but also because kdw asked me to write an article on Ingermanson's website and the Snowflake Method in particular. By step eight he says you've gotten enough info together to send a proposal and makes it sound like that's what you do: writing the first draft is just something you do because you can't stand waiting. I had heard that advice from other writers: thus my confusion. Now I can assume he's not addressing newbies and write my review accordingly.
Once again, thanks. (I'll be sure to mention you guys though by group not individual names)
posted
This might be slightly off the topic, but I've been wondering, how exactly does one get to be a solicited submission? There's plenty of information about unsolicited submissions going to the slush door and the chances of getting through. I haven't found much information about the other publishing doors. The only thing I can come up with is either a publisher who runs across a short story in a magazine or such, decides they like your style and contact you to see if you have anything else up your sleeve. Are there any other possiblities? I've heard that new writers need to beware the soliciting agent who wants to pick up unpublished writers who have not yet recieved an offer of publication. Are there known exceptions? I'm just curious and all...
Posts: 233 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Actually, this happened to a guy from Hatrack, "Ed". An editor saw a story he'd written and asked him to submit to their magazine. I haven't seen him post anything in quite a while, but as far as I know he's still writing and has a novel under consideration by a publisher.
He's very nice and I think he's an incredible writer. Here's his website:
BTW, for those who enjoyed "The Last Hammersong" when he put it out on F&F, according to his website it's been bought by Alienskin and will be in the Oct/Nov issue.
[Edited because I decided I was being a little presumptuous earlier]
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited August 19, 2005).]
posted
Autum was solicited by OSC through her boot camp application but I think it's more common to have someone read your story in a magazine.
The basic idea is: someone reads your work and would like more from you; they contact you. If it's someone you've never heard of, research them! Take the time to find out if it's a legitimate offer or a scam.
posted
If you send a query letter describing your manuscript to an agent or editor, and that agent or editor uses your SASE to ask you to send them the manuscript, then the manuscript is solicited.
I've had two agents (and now I have none). The first one I tend to refer to as "the agent from Hell" and the second one wanted me to do things to my story that didn't work for what I was trying to do.
It's definitely better to have an agent, as long as the agent is a good agent. No agent is infinitely better than a bad agent.
So when considering an agent, please ask for contact information so you can talk to the current clients of that agent.
posted
Ive never written a novel the same way twice. I've done about fifty thousand words of back story (on a novel that died on me at fifteen thousand words), and I've written with only the next few chapters in my mind (and wound up cutting the first eighteen chapters).
posted
Me too! I cut my own hair. A lot of people think I don't, but I do. Of course, most people seem to think that I never get my hair cut at all...which is odd.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Kathleen, my understanding of agents was that they would almost never put you in direct contact with previous or current clients, but that if they are on the level they should be immediately willing and able to provide examples of what they have sold recently. Is that incorrect? Can I actually ask an agent for contact information on current clients?
Posts: 491 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Minister, you're talking about an agent that you are already considering signing with, right? Not just someone out of the blue?
If you already have a dialog going with a potential agent, you have the right to ask for information about that agent and the clients of that agent. And it should be more information that just a list of books the agent has represented.
I can see where an agent might not want to just let anyone bother his/her clients, so yes, an agent might not be willing to give out contact information for that reason; but you should be able to ask who the agent's clients are and to ask if any of them would be willing to talk to you about agent-client relationships.
There are also "back door" ways to do this. For example, if an agent represents members of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (meaning that agent should be listed in the SFWA directory), I could tell you who their clients are, and even contact one or two of them myself to see if they would be willing to talk to you about their agent.
An agent who tries to discourage you from talking to the other people the agent works for may be hiding something, and I'd be nervous about signing with such an agent.
posted
Thanks, Kathleen. Makes sense. Different answers for different stages in the process. I just wish I were far enough along for this to be a real issue. Posts: 491 | Registered: Oct 2004
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(I'll be sure to mention you guys though by group not individual names)
