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Author Topic: Does anyone read
Susannaj4
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Piers Anthony, Heinlein? My mom always read Star Trak Novels, which I couldn't get into. But I can still pick up a book that I've read by these two and read it cover to cover.
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ChrisOwens
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Read 'em both. And like them. Wasn't crazy about the last book in Anthony's Mode series though...
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Susannaj4
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How do you feel about the Incarnation Series? And I wasn't crazy about that one either. So much so that I don't have it anymore and it wasn't memorable.
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Minister
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Heinlein, especially the earlier works. Haven't gotten to Anthony yet (he's still on my to-read list). But I can still come back to any one of a number of Heinlein novels and love reading them again. Unlike the work of many writers, I actually enjoy many of Heinlein's books more now that I know a little more about the mechanics of writing.
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ChrisOwens
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>How do you feel about the Incarnation Series?

On one hand I liked it, creative, interesting, on the other I was uncomfortable with its portrayal of an ineffective God too absorbed in self-righteousness to care about anyone, and the way it portrayed the Devil as some sort of fallen hero. Though, For The Love Of Evil, was an interesting story about falling from grace, something the Star Wars prequals were supposed to be about but missed the mark on. The Incarnation Series was a guilty read that I would never repeat.

With Heinlien, I loved Stranger In A Strange Land, yet again I found some of it a bit objectionable too.


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Matt Lust
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I'll go out on a limb here and say that the only reason you found it objectionable is becuase you didn't live the same pluarlist life RAH did.


RAH was free-lover long before Free-loving was cool.


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Survivor
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I think that some of Heinlein's work was a bit purile, the sort of thing you like as a teenager and then outgrow. And nearly all of Piers Anthony is so juvenille it's impossible to really enjoy once you actually experience puberty.

Heinlein's science/future oriented SF mostly stands the test of maturity, if it doesn't always stand up to the advance of science. His fantasy and socially oriented stories tend to lose their appeal quickly for the discerning reader, but they're still well written.

PA has a simple, engaging style of prose and is easy to read, but nothing about his stories, characterization, ideas, invention, etc. can really hold the attention of a fully developed mind.

And, just for the record, there was never a time "before Free-loving was cool." Free-loving was cool before human sacrifice came into the picture.


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Susannaj4
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Wow. So critical. What a nice way to say that someone is stupid and immature. Thanks. You have defined me without getting to know me.
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Survivor
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It was rather nice, wasn't it?

Look, you're free to disagree, and even provide arguments. Don't play the defenseless crybaby (okay, not that I've never done the same thing, but I play that as my last card, not my first).

And, whether or not you're actually human, you're certainly not far from it, so you shouldn't be surprised when I fail to laud your superlative intelligence and maturity. I mean, this is me talking here.


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Corky
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Susannaj4, don't let Survivor get to you.

He's not human and has little patience for those of us who are. But he can give very insightful critiques of people's 13 lines, and he has very useful things to say about writing topics like point of view and so on.

He just takes a little getting used to, and it's easier if you don't take what he says personally (unless he's talking about the humanness of humans, and then you're supposed to take it personally).

He also has a truly wicked sense of humor that, like most types of humor, doesn't appeal to everyone.


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Susannaj4
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I was taken aback by your rudeness. For give me for thinking you pompous. If you want to resort to name calling,don't flower it up with big words just say what you mean in plain english. I find that most 'fully developed' minds are as big as one thinks they are. I am different than you. You shouldn't fault it, but emgbrace the difference and agree to disagree. No, his ideas aren't new. Whose are? If you are telling me that you have come up with some thing brand spanking new, never been taken out of the box, then show me. I wanna see.
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Matt Lust
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I like your last line survivor.


That was good. And Yeah I agree the YA stuff RAH did was rather juvenille but then again that was its audience. I find HP to be the same but happened to find a slightly larger audience (understatement of the year)


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Susannaj4
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It's ok. So are we talking 'Hitckhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? Do you have your towel?

[This message has been edited by Susannaj4 (edited January 28, 2006).]


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Paul-girtbooks
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I have to admit to a guilty pleasure for Piers Anthony's Bio of a Space Tyrant.
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arriki
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When I was a juvenal back in the late 50s to early 60s, I didn't like Heinlein. I read and adored Andre Norton instead. And lots of other authors. I remeber enjoying some of Heinlein's short stories, but never his novels. Not even to this day.

I prefered Keith Laumer and Harry Harrison and people like that. I didn't like Heinlein. So shoot me.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited January 29, 2006).]


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ChrisOwens
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I read Laumer's first Worlds of the Imperiam book about two years ago. Reminded me a bit of James Bond but with parallel worlds. I would've read more, but his stuff is hard to find.
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Silver3
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Used to read lots of Anthony, but few of them made an impression on me. I can't remember any of the Xanth books save for "A spell for Chameleon".
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Robert Nowall
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Yup, I'm majorly into Heinlein---though, thirty-six years from when I first picked up "Space Cadet," I'm far more aware of the flaws in his work and the philosophical differences I have with his world view. He also intrigues me as a character in his own right, and I'd welcome a full length biography of him. (I reread his posthumous "Grumbles from the Grave," and realized nothing was said about the work of any of his contemporaries or successors---some stuff on Wells and Verne, but nothing on who he was competing against for the reader's attentions.)

Of course with Heinlein, I also got into the other two of the Big Three---Asimov and Clarke.

Asimov fascinated me for many years. He is, after all, generally considered a role model for geeks. His work rarely let me down, and his non-fiction (when I found out about it) played even better. Though of late, I've grown somewhat disillusioned with his science writing...seems it's less about science and more on the history of science. It seems an odd flaw for me to take note of, what with history being one of my mainstays.

(Also, I've come to a serious difference of opinion with him about politics---but that kind of strain is present in any reader / writer relationship I might have. The only person I know who shares my opinions precisely is myself---with anybody else, there's bound to be a disagreement.)

That leaves Clarke---by default, if nothing else, the world's greatest living science fiction writer. When I reread it, I still find his work stimulating, more so than Asimov's and possibly more than Heinlein's.

I never cared for Anthony in novel-length---but some of his short stories have stayed with me, and I found his memoirs (particularly the first, "Bio of an Ogre,") and occasional commentaries with his novels, incredibly fascinating. (A lot of his work, dragged out of his back drawer of rejected manuscripts and published at the height of his success, should have been left in the back drawer.)

Laumer never caught my attention the way some others did. Though I have strong affection for his short story, "The Last Command."

There are several authors whom, if I could get more of their works, I would---but they're hopelessly out of print or there just aren't any more. (H. Beam Piper comes to mind in this context.) Then, sometimes, only one book of a particular author really engages me---and the rest of their work leaves me cold or indifferent, though I've often read it. (With Vernor Vinge, for example, only "Marooned in Realtime" and a short story titled "Long Shot" really grab me.)


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Survivor
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a trio with Asimov and Clarke, eh?

Those three each had very different strengths as SF icons. And as writers, of course. I think I'd score Heinlein first just on the writing aspect, but that's a complex decision of itself. Asimov's sense of fun and invention was always delightful, even when his writing was a bit stilted or didactic in tone. Clarke made SF matter as a literature of the profound, which opened the field to an entire generation of writers seeking to use the strange to explore the inner realities of the heart (or something like that).

I favor reading Heinlien's work, but perhaps because of that very fact, I have trouble seeing him as a seminal force in the genre the way Asimov and Clarke appear. Or perhaps I don't really appreciate him in what was arguably his most important role, the writer who connected SF to the baby boomers. I don't care about the boomers and I don't care about the stories he wrote for them.

For a generation of readers, those stories were seminal to their identification with the future. From my perspective, they're as meaningless as the lives of the several million humans who found him a prophet of sorts. Such is the fickle compass of greatness.


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Susannaj4
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So then is any of it good? Is is everything we read mediocre?
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Matt Lust
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I woudl say that Everything is flawed is a more accurate portriat.
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Fahrion Kryptov
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Of course there's good stuff, though not if you're like Survivor, who has a standard of writing beyond any human ability but that he, not being human, can. I do have to agree that Piers Anthony is rather juvenile... but then, wasn't that the point? It is YA after all, and for that audience, he is quite good. Back in the day, I loved his stuff. But then, I also liked Animorphs >.>

I've not read much of Heinlein, but what I read I thought was fairly decent. Sci-fi is not my "thing"... I'm more a fantasy guy. And as far as Star Trek, I'd much rather watch it (fav is TNG) than read it...

But I usually prefer sci-fi that's completely off the wall, not necessarily the traditional stuff, which I feel gets icky. ah well.


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ChrisOwens
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Offboard, I had a fellow Hatracker, who'll I'll let be anonymous, propose that Survivor is actaully Orson Scott Card, and that his webpage is just a front, ect...

I didn't subscribe to the hypothesis, but it was amusing to kick around.


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Fahrion Kryptov
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I don't mean to nitpick, but it drives me nuts when people write ect... IT'S ETC!!! from Latin et cetera. nyrrrrr....

But that's an... interesting idea... hehehehe


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Susannaj4
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I, um actually thought that and I've only been here a few days.
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Robert Nowall
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Well, if y'all are going to put things out under pseudonyms, there's bound to be a certain vagueness about just who some of us think some of the others are. *I* am using my real name here...anybody who feels like it can probably track me down.

As for Card, well...I read "Ender's Game" when it first came out in "Analog" many years ago...it didn't thrill me. Later, other interesting stories came out...and, eventually, I compulsively went through assorted back issues and reread what Card work I could find. Found some great stuff that way. But "Ender's Game," at least in that original version, still didn't thrill me.

I've always meant to pick up and read some of the "Alvin Maker" series...I read (and liked) some excerpts in (I think) "Asimov's" early on, and they seemed like something right up my alley...but I just haven't gotten around to it. (I *am* planning my weekly bookstore run tomorrow. Maybe then, if I remember...)


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Survivor
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Yeah, I've had a couple of people suggest I might be Card. Like I said then, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Card would do in the first place. Not that I'm claiming that we share any kind of telepathic empathy, the last time I tried to ask him a question, he didn't let me finish, and his answer was a redaction of something he'd already said. So we're definitely in the "share some opinions, but don't think at all alike" catagory.
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ChrisOwens
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When I first signed up for a Hatrack writing group (did any of those ever work out?) somebody pointed out that my initials were the opposite of Card's. CSO/OSC. I guess that kind of makes me the Anticard.
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Susannaj4
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I've actually never read any of Card's work. I do like Greg Bear and Ben Bova, and only read them because my husband bought them and then put them down. In fact, yesterday I was actually looking for something Card wrote, but I guess I didn't venture far enough away from home.
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ChrisOwens
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Oh, wow. Ender's Game is a good start as any-- a good entry into his catalog. The short stories in Maps In A Mirror are among the best I've ever read.

How'd you hear of Hatrack?

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited January 30, 2006).]


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Susannaj4
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Well, I did a search for it after someone had been to some sort of luncheon in which Mr. Card presented. I do know who he is. Not him personally, I mean that he's an author and I know what genre.

[This message has been edited by Susannaj4 (edited January 30, 2006).]


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nimnix
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I've never read the fiction Card wrote, I came here because of his books on writing. I stayed because the people in this forum are keeping me here.

Anyway, on-topic:
I read Anthony's Incarnation series, back when I was first exploring the Fantasy genre. I don't remember them clearly now, but I do remember they were enjoyable, and were part of the reason I like exploring characterization, and have a fascination with good and evil, and where the lines are drawn, if any. Flawed characters draw me in like nothing else.


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Susannaj4
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me too.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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For whatever it may be worth, I have met and talked to both Survivor and Orson Scott Card on several occasions, and I can testify without a doubt that they are not the same person.

There is a definite possibility that someone else you may have heard of might be posting here under another name, however.


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Robert Nowall
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Addendum: I did look for Card's "Alvin Maker" books. The store had several, but not all of them...I bought a paperback copy of "Seventh Son." On a brief skim through...well, the maps alone are enough to whet my interest...and I have the added bonus of seeing where the name "Hatrack River" came from, too.

I hope to read it, One Day Real Soon...


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Dude
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I didn't care for Ender's Game all that much. If you are looking for a OSC book to start with, I would recommend Wyrms. The whole "talking heads in jars" thing was pretty cool.
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ChrisOwens
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Kathleen,

Thanks, I love mysteries. It'll be interesting to hypothesize on the "someone else you may have heard of" and what name they are posting under.


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JamieFord
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Wow, what a festive thread.

I read PA's Incarnations way back when, and bought the last one "And Eternity" about ten years ago and promptly lost it in a move, never reading it.

I just found it in December and tried to read it and just couldn't finish it. Too much time had passed. Not that it's for an immature audience or anything like that, I just read a ton of fantasy and Sci-fi years ago, and it doesn't do a lot for me these days. I guess tastes change.


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