Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » The price of success

   
Author Topic: The price of success
dckafka
Member
Member # 3258

 - posted      Profile for dckafka   Email dckafka         Edit/Delete Post 
After a while, it seems the talents of even the best SF/F writers seem to succumb to the economic need to produce a certain number of titles per year.

C. J. Cherry, OSC, Zelazney (while he lived), etc, all seem to have produced a lot more novels than their mainstream counterparts (Bellow, Updike, Irving). However, mainstream crowd tends (Not counting Stephen King - he's a special case) to squeeze them out more sparingly than SF/F luminaries. And I have to say, the high level of SF/F productivity seems to hurt the quality of their writing. C. J. Cherryh used to be one of my favorite, but she hasn't produced anything of real interest in years. OSC hasn't grabbed me with anything since "Speaker for the Dead". Zelazny never recovered from his "Amber" series.

Don't get me wrong here. I think all the above still write beautifully. However, it's as though their stories become derivitive of their earlier successes. There's a spark missing that I missed in their earlier works.

Could it be that any writer only has so many compelling stories in them? Can the economic need to produce smother the creative spark?


Posts: 76 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aalanya
Member
Member # 3263

 - posted      Profile for Aalanya   Email Aalanya         Edit/Delete Post 
Hm. Well, the trend that I see is that a series tends to sell better than individual books, or if not a series then at least something similar to what has worked in the past. I guess writers keep writing whatever worked before because in way, something new is like starting all over again. If you write something familiar, all the people who loved the first story will be coming back, and you may draw in some new fans too. But something different might not sell as well since the reader is sort of taking a risk getting a book that is different.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keeley
Member
Member # 2088

 - posted      Profile for Keeley   Email Keeley         Edit/Delete Post 
Not too long ago, a musician I enjoy immensely put out a new album. A lot of critics thought it was good, some loved it, some loved only a few songs, and others thought it was just a rehash of songs the guy had already written.

I think the same variation can be seen in writing.

Yes, some series' begin to feel tired after a while (Salvatore's Drizzt books and Jordan's Wheel of Time are the first things I think of). The characters I wanted to care about slowly turned into cardboard and the characters I did care about weren't strong enough to overcome the writer's exhaustion. I never want to be in a position where I have to write in a world I can't stand anymore just because I need to pay the bills.

However, sometimes it has nothing to do with being tired of a story. Whedon loved the world he created in Firefly, and yet everything he created in that world after Fox cancelled the series has, imo, fallen flat, in spite of his passion for the milieu. Serenity was decent, but it felt like a condensed second season of Firefly.

I think it can also be a perception of the reader. I read Small Gods by Terry Prachett and found I couldn't read anything else by him. Nothing else in Discworld resonated nearly as much with me as Small Gods. So, I'm currently of the opinion that Small Gods is the best he's written even though I'm pretty sure I'm wrong.

My point with all this rambling is that I don't know the answer and I'm terrified the same thing is going to happen to me. I've noticed I enjoy romance in a story and we all know how tired that can get. And yet, if the story's good, I don't care how many times I've seen the formula; perhaps as long as characters are good and drive the plot, the rest doesn't really matter.

[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited March 01, 2006).]


Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
It has a lot to do with what kind of reader you are. How many times have you read your favorite book? That will give you a rough idea of how many different books you can read by the same author.

I could read any of my favorite books a thousand times (with some, I've probably reached that mark). I could read a thousand books by any one of my favorite authors (unfortunately for me, King isn't one of my favorite authors, though I don't despise him or anything).

Some litereurs have assigned a lot of importance to the difference between a person who can read the same great book over and over and never get tired of it and the kind of person who always seeks novelty. I personally think that it's a darn good thing that most readers want novelty more than greatness, because I do hope to eventually get published and, as the word itself suggests, novels sell because they're something new. I like being able to read well written texts without getting tired of them, but I also like discovering new stories.

As for whether the economic need to produce can smother the creative spark, I think that it certainly can, but usually it doesn't. If a writer has a creative spark and can nurture it through the long trials of fighting to have it acknowledged, that spark can usually survive a bit of pampering.

The problem is that it's usually going to stay the same creative spark that got that writer published. Just like the words that made a book great are going to stay the same words no matter how many times you read it.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ChrisOwens
Member
Member # 1955

 - posted      Profile for ChrisOwens   Email ChrisOwens         Edit/Delete Post 
Déjà vu...

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/001537.html


Posts: 1275 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dckafka
Member
Member # 3258

 - posted      Profile for dckafka   Email dckafka         Edit/Delete Post 
Not necessarily Déjà vu, though the comments about Stephen King are well taken. King strikes me as a compulsive writer - and I wish he's lend me a little of it - rather than someone trying to maintain an income. I think he's pretty well past that life ;-). Rumor has it he once tried to demand the same advance Tom Clancy. He was turned down because Clancy's isn't churning them out in the volume King has. In effect, Clancy's slower output has made his works a scarcer commodity that King's. So a writer can dilute the value of his body of work by publishing too often.

Harper Lee wrote "To Kill a Mocking Bird" and never published another novel. Think of what a second manuscript of her's would bring.


Posts: 76 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robert Nowall
Member
Member # 2764

 - posted      Profile for Robert Nowall   Email Robert Nowall         Edit/Delete Post 
I hear in the record biz that the companies would rather their big artists put out a good album roughly every four years---which is hard on the ones who can put out something good every six months.

Often as not, one-shot writers like Harper Lee or J. D. Salinger or Margaret Mitchell had one book so huge a success that there was no pressing need to write another one to make a living. (Yeah, I know Salinger published a couple of other things, but only one thing really counted.)

(Oh. I read somewhere that Harper Lee wrote a "Nick Carter: Killmaster" books while still a struggling writer. They were a series, all over the book racks from about the fifties to the eighties, ghosted by a pile of different writers. I have no idea whether this story true or not---nor do I have a title---but it would make an interesting comparison piece.)


Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keeley
Member
Member # 2088

 - posted      Profile for Keeley   Email Keeley         Edit/Delete Post 
I was under the impression that Clancy put out as much as King. It seems that way when I walk through the library, anyway.
Posts: 836 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garp
Member
Member # 2919

 - posted      Profile for Garp           Edit/Delete Post 
I think we should be careful passing these rumors along about how much money such-and-such a writer is demanding, and why. And, further, what motivates him (or her) to write the number of kind of books he (or she) writes.

Unless, of course, you know all of the ins-and-outs of the publishing industry as well as all of the ins-and-outs of the grants writers can receive.


Posts: 50 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pixydust
Member
Member # 2311

 - posted      Profile for pixydust   Email pixydust         Edit/Delete Post 
I do worry about this in my own future as a writer. I have been working so hard to get my novel published and every time I get close I find myself getting terrified rather than excited. Maybe I can write one fairly good book, but can I be as good as what's out there? And worse: can I write a better one the second time around? (If I'm so lucky as to have a second time). But I've come to the conclusion that this is just something I love to do. I can't help myself. So, I will do it, until my love turns sour.

And then I'll take up knitting.


Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rcorporon
Member
Member # 2879

 - posted      Profile for rcorporon   Email rcorporon         Edit/Delete Post 
Garp,

Don't confuse the books written BASED on Clancy's works (Spec Ops, etc).

Clancy doesn't have that many novels to his name.


Posts: 450 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garp
Member
Member # 2919

 - posted      Profile for Garp           Edit/Delete Post 
Rcorporon,

That's Keeley, not me.


Posts: 50 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garp
Member
Member # 2919

 - posted      Profile for Garp           Edit/Delete Post 
Pixydust,

There are a few things you can learn from Stephen King. First, he had five or six novels in the drawer before he sold CARRIE. Second, he didn't stop writing while waiting for a response from editors.

Lets say it takes two years for your novel to reach all of its potential markets, publishers and agents alike. By the time that one novel has reached all of its potential marktes you should have written at least two more and have plans for a third.

But maybe you're all ready doing that and I'm just misreading your post. Either way, it seems to me you're worrying about things that don't concern you now. To do that is death to your creative life; I know, I've done it too.

Just write and write and write because in the end that's the only thing you can control.


[This message has been edited by Garp (edited March 03, 2006).]


Posts: 50 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yanos
Member
Member # 1831

 - posted      Profile for yanos   Email yanos         Edit/Delete Post 
Pixydust. Of course you can write a book as good as those out there. Hopefully you can write one better than most of what is out there. Can you write another after that? Yes! Yes! and Yes!
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pixydust
Member
Member # 2311

 - posted      Profile for pixydust   Email pixydust         Edit/Delete Post 
Garp: Oh, I definitely keep writing. I'm glutton for punishment. No, really, I just have nagging feelings. But it's not like I obsess or anything. I think it's just that I'm at a strange stage right now. I have an agent and we're shopping the ms out, and getting closer as we go. It's a bit scary. I've been so close I could taste it and even then I couldn't get excited. So, I keep writing, and I have another manuscript "in the drawer" so to speak, but that feeling just keeps getting stronger. "Can I really do this? Or am I just kidding myself?" I mean, only a year ago this was a dream and now as it's coming into reality, and I see the seriousness that people pay to my work, I feel like I'm a fake.

Thanks yanos, your the best drill sargent a girl could ask for.


Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TL 601
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for TL 601   Email TL 601         Edit/Delete Post 
I think using Zelazny as an example of someone whose later work lacked a spark ... is an extremely poor example.
Posts: 237 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ChrisOwens
Member
Member # 1955

 - posted      Profile for ChrisOwens   Email ChrisOwens         Edit/Delete Post 
Ironically, the later Amber series, especially Knight Of Shadows numbers among my favorite books.

Of course, Knight Of Shadows lit the fires of my 18 year old imagination and when I got my hands on it, I devoured it in one 24 hour period.

But Zelanzy did drop the ball IMO in the tenth book, Prince of Chaos.

And her name was Julia...
ah...


Posts: 1275 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dckafka
Member
Member # 3258

 - posted      Profile for dckafka   Email dckafka         Edit/Delete Post 
Compare Zelazney's "Lord of Light" and "Doorways in the Sand" with the later Amber/Chaos novels. There's no comparison viz the inventiveness and spark of language.
Posts: 76 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robert Nowall
Member
Member # 2764

 - posted      Profile for Robert Nowall   Email Robert Nowall         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I always promised myself that I wouldn't worry too much about what *other* writers were getting. I'd just concern myself with what *I'm* getting. Of course, I'd have to get as far as the *getting* of it to actually *worry* about it...
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2