Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Ending with a dead MC

   
Author Topic: Ending with a dead MC
wbriggs
Member
Member # 2267

 - posted      Profile for wbriggs   Email wbriggs         Edit/Delete Post 
OSC looked over my plot synopsis in class, and had only one major complaint: that I end with MC dying. Unfortunately, I suspect he's right again.

Here's the deal. (American) MC finds he's absolutely necessary to prevent Britain from being overturned by a hundred-mile-long giant getting up and thereby killing everyone. He wanted to see his little girl grow up, and live a life with his wife, but has to sacrifice himself or watch this disaster happen. At the end, he's a ghost, who can check up on his family; some consolation. The point is something about heroism, I think.

One point I think OSC was making is that it's more interesting if death isn't kind of OK; it's a real cost. I get that: I shouldn't shield the reader from sadness, but drive into it hard. But here's another thing. I can't think of a story in which the MC dies at the end (OK, I can think of one but I won't spoil it), and I think readers don't like it. I don't.

Do you agree? Should I avoid killing the MC at the end? Is there a way to make it worthwhile?


Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
I totally agree about the haunting thing..make it real death, no half ways.

It makes me very sad when a MC I like dies at the end. Sometimes uncomfortably sad to the point where I can honestly say I don't like it, but that's the mark of a well told story, isn't it? I mean, if I didn't care then the death wouldn't affect me.

I think there should be more stories in which the hero dies at the end. I also think that true heroism often comes wiht a price and that this is a tremendously powerful theme.

In short, I disagree with OSC on that point. Heck, how many MC's has GRR Martin killed of and people *still* like him? And he doesn't even wait for the end!


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Beth
Member
Member # 2192

 - posted      Profile for Beth   Email Beth         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not opposed to killing off MCs and actually it's one of the things that I like about Martin.

But I also think that since you're taking Card's class and doing this synopsis under his guidance, you should really try to take his advice for this project and see what you can learn from it. Do it his way for now; that's what you're paying to learn.


Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tchernabyelo
Member
Member # 2651

 - posted      Profile for tchernabyelo   Email tchernabyelo         Edit/Delete Post 
In general, I'd suggest that while a main character is fair game for killing off, the main character probably shouldn't be. And in a short story, you tend to only have one main character, unlike a longer work where you've the luxury of time and space to study several.

However, if you know from the get-go that the character is dead, then the reader may be less likely to feel cheated. However, I guess you may feel that in doing this, you're kind of putting the ending at the beginning.

Stories of (self-)sacrifice can work, but I think there is a resistance to them, out there in the market. Probably best left for when you're an established name...


Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
There's nothing wrong with a heroic death.

There's also nothing wrong with an ignominius death, as long as it's in a story and not real life

But if you're going to have the main character sacrifice his life, you better make it worthwhile. Keeping him around as a ghost means that you don't really believe it's worth killing him all the way dead. And the reader will probably agree with you, eh? If his death isn't worthwhile, then that has to be the driving point of the story.

The fundamental problem with playing around with stories where you kill off the MC is that it usually means that you don't really value his life enough in the first place. You're planning on the reader caring far more about this person than you ever do. And it doesn't work. The story is always better if you care enough about your character to give him an honest chance. In Making Monsters, James Patrick Kelly has a good insight into this element of the craft.

quote:
Pardon my hubris, but the god Henry was praying to was me; what kind of universe was I running here?

He claims that he wrote a much stronger story as a result of having that critical insight. I don't doubt him. The point is that when you set out to kill off a main character just to get a reaction out of the reader, you damage your own critical ability to empathize with the character, and that will hurt your chances of writing a great story.

It's different if your character is based on a prior existance, either a real or fictional person who already died. That's the tradition from which most of the world's really great "death of the hero/antihero" literature is born. But I suspect that isn't quite what you're doing here.

Sometimes a hero (or antihero) dies despite everything you can do. But why not care about this poor fellow enough to at least try and save him?


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
What ever happened to a good old-fashioned tragedy?

I haven't written a story in which *The* main character dies but I've killed off important characters before. In my long-running trilogy I decided to kill off a character before I ever really got to know him because it made the plot work. But untrue to Survivor's suggestion, I eventually fell in love with the character. I gave him a romantic interest, power, honor, and courage. Before I knew it I really, really liked the man and wanted desperatly to find a way out for him. I tried several different ways to keep him alive but in the end I knew the story was stronger for losing him. And so I hope the reader cries as much as I did when I wrote his death scene.

And if you're looking for stories in which main character(s) dying at the end works here's one for you: Romeo and Juliet. Not my favorite Shakespeare, but definitely the most popular. (And if I gave away that ending by mentioning it then you really needed to have stayed awake in English class. )


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J
Member
Member # 2197

 - posted      Profile for J   Email J         Edit/Delete Post 
For Whom the Bell Tolls

Maybe the best-told story written in the English language. Absolutely in the top five, ever, not counting the Bible. And it ends with the MC dying.

The only story that even comes close to it is The Old Man and the Sea. And that (arguably) also ends with the MC dying.


Posts: 683 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
HSO
Member
Member # 2056

 - posted      Profile for HSO   Email HSO         Edit/Delete Post 
This is a tricky subject. In my opinion, as long as the dying/dead MC leaves behind a legacy of some kind or accomplishes the major goal at closure, then it's perfectly legitimate to whack him as a noble sacrifice or what have you. In stories where the MC fails to acheive the goal AND he hardly makes an effort to try to win, those always leave me feeling cheated. For instance, killing off an MC just because you can or if it's truly dark fiction with the intent on being deliberately shocking.

I wrote a story that got plenty of negative feedback for having the MC die at the end (with critiquer's questions such as: why do we follow him if he's going to die at the end? and the like), but upon reflection on those comments, it probably had more to do with the MC not quite knowing if he died in vain or succeeded -- which is a fair nit. But since he changed the past and altered his present, he could never know anyway... sort of paradoxial, with the only way to resolve it for some readers is by having the MC know for certain that he succeeded.

(Note: The readers definitely knew he succeeded in the final scene, but I very likely handled it badly and rather cheesily with a new POV). I _could_ write it in so that the MC knows, sure, but then I'd feel like I wasn't telling an honest story and that I was pandering to a particular audience's opinion of how stories should end in their Star Trekish universes to make them happy -- one of the comments I got was roughly: "who cares if it breaks the rules, you can do what you want!"

But whatever. What I _want_ is for the MC to die... and he was going to die anyway...

Everyone dies eventually. Might as well happen at the end of a story that will never have a sequel. That's just my opinion. But I definitely do not subscribe to no good reason/shock value/Quentin Tarantino-"Resevoir Dogs"-how-about-we-kill-everyone-off endings.


Posts: 1520 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimslade
Member
Member # 3173

 - posted      Profile for Grimslade           Edit/Delete Post 
Keeping with the Shakespeare theme, how about Hamlet? Bloody story with eight corpses including the all the main characters (nevermind Fortinbras).

The MC's death must be a consequence to elicit the pathos of the ultimate sacrifice. There is a transaction in the readers mind, the daughter's continued existence for the life and actions of the father. Simple barter. It cheapens the value of the daughter's life, if Dad gets to parent from the ether. Thus, the emotional payoff of the father's sacrifice is lessened. It doesn't matter if the father didn't know that he would come back as a ghost; the writer did. The reader often feels ripped off.

Keep the dead, dead. Let the impact stand.


Posts: 36 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JohnArden
Member
Member # 3272

 - posted      Profile for JohnArden           Edit/Delete Post 
Don't be afraid of what you or anyone else might not like. Sometimes, we have to include those elements in our writing that we do not like to see just how broad a scope we can approach with our writing. If you do well with including what you do not like into your writing, there's no telling how your audience will receive it.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
luapc
Member
Member # 2878

 - posted      Profile for luapc   Email luapc         Edit/Delete Post 
To give a perfect example of HSO's comment about legacy, consider Robert Heinlein's short story The Long Watch. In that one the reader knows all along the MC is going to die, but for a good cause.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rcorporon
Member
Member # 2879

 - posted      Profile for rcorporon   Email rcorporon         Edit/Delete Post 
The Man Who Would Be King -> MC dies
The Trial -> MC dies
1984 -> MC will die eventually
The Winter of our Discontent -> MC Dies
In Dubious Battle -> MC dies

--

There are tons of examples where the MC dies, and the books still turn out to be great.

The ending of The Trial is one of the saddest endings I've read, but that doesn't detract from the book.


Posts: 450 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robert Nowall
Member
Member # 2764

 - posted      Profile for Robert Nowall   Email Robert Nowall         Edit/Delete Post 
I can't say for sure that it's inevitable that the reader will realize the lead character in Heinlein's "The Long Watch" will die---but if, as is likely, the reader has already read "Space Cadet," they will realize this is a story baldly told within that story, and realize how things will fall out.

A couple more titles for reference:

"El Paso," Marty Robbins.

"The Murder of Roger Ackroyd," Agatha Christie.


Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nyna
Member
Member # 3062

 - posted      Profile for Nyna           Edit/Delete Post 
I don't see anything wrong with killing off the MC, as long as it's well done, achieves something, and doesn't break the mood of the story. But you have to make sure your audience knows that that's the sort of story you're telling -- don't promise a happy ending and take it away out of nowhere. Foreshadowing is your friend.

Of course, I was the kid who read and re-read 'Where the Red Fern Grows' and cried every time, so it's pretty much established that I love a good tragedy.

In conclusion: if you're writing a tragedy, write a tragedy. If you're not, find a way to let the guy live.


Posts: 9 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pjp
Member
Member # 3211

 - posted      Profile for pjp           Edit/Delete Post 
If the story is a good one, and it is necessary for the MC to die, then die they must. Personally, I think the 'hero' living happily ever after can be tiresome.

That said, new writers would probably have troulbe selling it, and even well established writer's probably couldn't do it too many times.


Posts: 160 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2