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Here's something for you folks to chew on. I find myself in a writing class where, next to the instructor, I am by far the most experienced writer. I'm interested to learn what you would do in this situation. What can I get out of this?
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Hmm...looks like you may have to just buckle down and play 'mentor'. Who knows, maybe the teacher knows an agent/publisher. You *could* conceivably get something out of it; there's rarely a situation presented to you by the Universe with nothing to teach. Good luck, Spaceman.
Posts: 103 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Usually, people learn the most about fiction by critiquing others. That's what I think was most valuable about bootcamp, anyway. In that respsect, you still have plenty to gain in a situation like this. I'm with Mary. Pretend you're not.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Apr 2002
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The more you read and crit others' work, the more you'll learn what works and what doesn't. One of the others might have a really good grasp of exposition or a good way to write dialog. Even if everyone else is really bad, at least you learn what not to do.
Posts: 86 | Registered: Apr 2006
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The transformation of every student in bootcamp between thursday morning and saturday was astounding.
This instructor's ground rules for critiquing are similar enough to the bootcamp ground rules that I expect to see some of the same effects. In fact, I'm going to be watching that very closely as I'm looking to cultivate my own workshopping group.
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MightyCow: The main thing to realize is that even somebody like OSC was once a beginner. I get the sense that most (but not all) of these people are writers who have yet to make the committment. Case in point, I waited for the class to start by working on a story on my PDA. I was the only person writing.
Here on Hatrack, we all know that the clock doesn't start ticking until you start taking your writing seriously. That doesn't make these folks bad writers or make their opinions any less valid. As readers, they know what does and doesn't work, even if they don't know why.
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I've learned a ton over the years by "teaching" or in the case of writing -- critiquing. The trick is not to sound like you think you know more than everyone else.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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In the beginner's mind the possibilities are many. In the expert's mind are few.
Sorry if I butchered that. I just heard the expression "beginner's mind" for several years before anyone bothered to share the whole quote with me. Which is a shame, because I had a near-terminal case of expert's mind.
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Hoptoad: I never claimed that I knew more than the others enrolled. Clearly that isn't true. There is an attorney, a physicist, and a physician among the students. My only claim is that I am farther down the path than the others, and as I said, even the best of the best were once beginners. The next big name author might be sitting in that room with me.
And yes, I have been fortunate to rub elbows with and receive training from some very good writers, both OSC and more than one not-OSC. It would be arrogant and self-defeating to think that somehow puts me in a different class. I'd rather share what I've learned to help the others along than to use it to enhance aloof posturing. If I preface something I post with a sentence like the one you quoted, it simply means that that my opinion was strongly influenced by one of these people. Nothing more.
It's also going to be interesting to discover whether this instructor has different opinions, bearing in mind that a successful author is as much about networking as about the writing itself.
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In my opinion, Spaceman is merely taking an honest look at his skill level compared to some of the others in the class. A writer who has spent years honing his craft SHOULD be able to discern a difference in skill levels. Part of what makes a skilled writer is to see the flaws and be able to identify them as flaws. It's why critiquing makes us better.
And, when you pay for a class, you expect to get your money's worth out of it. If the class isn't going to help you improve your skills, then you have to either change your goals (Why am I here and what CAN I learn from it?) or simply drop out and get your money back.
Face it, Spaceman... you may be approaching the level where an ordinary writing class will no longer provide you much benefit. At some point a good writer no longer needs to be told how to write.
But, if you say 1) the teacher has a teaching style you admire and 2)you are interested in putting together a workshop group of your own perhaps you are there, not to learn to write, but to learn effective ways of teaching. Only you can determine if there is benefit to you in this class.
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Not to be confused, of course, with No Mind or Mindless Mind, wherein there is no intrinsic discernment between Self and Other, Nirvana and Samsara. The mirror scrubbed clean so that sky is perfectly reflected. The drop becoming the ocean, realizing that nothing has happened and that Drop was in fact *always* Ocean...or, like, um, words to that effect (*dodging your hastily-swung kyusaku stick*)
Ker-*twang*! If Mind is empty, then where did that 'ouch' come from? You call yourself a student of Zen? Enlightenment came quicker back-back in the day when we used to *beat* the monks silly...now the elders will give away answers to 'Does Jonshu's dog have Buddha nature?' just for a sip or two of sake. Downtown Zen. Time for the Master to cast the oaken statue of Manjushri into the bonfire.
If you say it's there, you've lost it already. If you say it's *not* there, you've lost it already-- (shu'up, noob!) If you say it's both there and not there, you've lo-- (get him now with the kyusaku!)
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Now here is a real dillema, What if you are more experienced than the teacher? This happened to me (well he was more experienced he had a PHD in creative writing, but I just couldn't respect him, prehaps it was the 16 typos in the syllybus or the fact that he spent half of each class tearing down Harry Potter without having read the books.) It was sad that I thought that way because I did horribly in that class. I only turned in crap to him.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: I just couldn't respect him, prehaps it was the 16 typos in the syllybus
That's precious.
I apologise, spaceman.
You have explained yourself and I will take your statement at face value. You see, to me, those prefaces always appeared designed to lend more weight to the following statements and to somehow "borrow" credentials. Clearly I was wrong.
I was probably also wrong to equate writing experience with writing knowledge.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited June 12, 2006).]
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Hoptoad: No need for apology. I wrote something that was easier to misinterpret than to interpret correctly, so it's my own fault. I'll try to be more aware of that in the future.
Elan: I still need things explained to me, sometimes with a sledgehammer (I can't deny being opinionated.) It does get harder and harder to find people that can help, but that wasn't why I took the class. The main motivation for taking this class was quite simple. All my interaction with other writers is online. I like to actually talk to other writers from time to time.
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