While Jake is with the elves, the most famous armorer in the magical world (an elf) has given Jake two swords, one for him and one for Ethan. Historically (I'm serious - I've done a lot of research on these things), fairies and elves fight with swords, bows and arrows, pikes and spears, so those are some of the things the boys were trained in.

Those elvish swords this armorer made for the boys are too good to ignore in the story. So either I'm gonna have to delete all mention of swords and weapons training (doesn't sound like a good idea to me), or I'm gonna have to change how they're doing warfare in the FIRST book as well (where both they and the bad guys all fight with magic only, no weapons). My thought on that is that when they do have the battle in the first book, the boys are armed only with magic, while the wizards are armed with both wands AND swords, which scares the boys (who are only partially trained in magic at that point) even more than just fighting with magic. I'll have to rewrite all the battle sequences to include swordplay if I go this way, which doesn't thrill me at all, but the swords are too cool to ignore, I think.

Using large amounts of magic costs the magical person (wizard or mage) tremendously in energy, leaving them exhausted even if they aren't wounded. I've considered having the boys "take a break" in battle by switching to the swords to rest their magic, but that means they have to get closer to their enemies to be able to do them some harm! I don't think that's a viable option.

Your ideas are welcome! This second novel is nearly finished in first draft form (I'm at the two big battles near the end) and I'd love to complete this draft by the end of the year so I can get the first one polished ASAP for the last time (I hope) and send it to publishers soon after the first of the year. Thanks for your help!

The preference for using magic for battle in Harry Potter seems to be related to the ethic of not actually killing anyone. Most of the combat spells used seem to have remarkably little lethal potential, mundane weapons are less flashy but do considerably more damage. But then again, I'm hardly an expert on Harry Potter, and I consider the magic system to be a rather poorly developed mishmash.

Punches or stabs can end a fight quickly, yeah, but you have to be closer to your adversary. And since this is in modern times, why wouldn't they just use guns? (Serious question - I need to understand this before I can write the swordfighting stuff properly - if I was the one involved in combat, you'd better believe I'd be packing as many firearms as I could carry and extra mags for all of them! Do they make holsters for bazookas? That would be a nice side-arm, don't you think? :-> ) But I want them to stay away from firearms. There has to be a reason they can only fight with cold steel (swords or daggers), wood (pikes, staffs) or magic. I just can't quite get a handle on what that reason is. Throwing rocks is good. And these boys grew up in the American West on a ranch, so they can throw a lasso, too, but they don't have lariats with them in England.

Jenn - yeah, I've been wondering if the swords should be magic swords. They're magical (so far) in that they look like small penknives you'd be allowed to carry on a plane until the boys turn them into daggers that hang on their belts. But they're actually full-sized swords - it's just hard to walk with a sword banging into your leg, so they carry them as daggers instead, just enlarging them when they draw them. Thanks for your thoughts - it's that "overarching logic" I'm trying to work out with this brainstorming session.

Survivor - thanks for your ideas. You've given me a lot to think about. My boys don't want to kill, but learned in their first battle that if they don't kill their enemies, they get up and keep coming. I believe in writing battles as realistically as possible. War isn't pretty - it's necessary at times, but not pretty. Being "nice" to your enemies won't stop them. So barring nukes and cruise missiles, my guys will have to deal with the enemy with blades and their wits as well as their magic. The spells I've had them cast so far aren't "directly lethal" but have lethal effects (fire, crushing, etc.), and the boys worked their way up to using these lethal-effect spells (I like that term - thanks for giving me something to call them! May I use it? I may insert it somewhere to clarify things.)

Thanks a lot! All of you have given me lots of things to think about and some new ways to approach the problem!

If you want an interesting magical sword-fighting concept, you might try Bleach, although that's not available on cable, you'd have to buy it. Or you can just peruse the concept, which I will summarize for you. In Bleach, the Shinigami swords are composed of manifested spirit energy. When the shinigami are in physical bodies for some reason (to interact with humans/material reality/food normally without manifesting a concentration of spirit energy that would attract enemies, usually), that body is the only weapon they have, and the only special fighting methods they can use are magic techniques like lightning attacks and fireballs and stuff. When they leave the gigai they can use "flash step" (basically short-range teleportation) and spirit-sword techniques as well.

I believe that's enough to illustrate the idea. Naturally, you don't want to lift your entire magical system outright from a popular anime. I do recommend that you reconsider making the swords variable in size like that, it's both subject to abuse and it makes them seem rather like children's toys. If they need to disguise them to take them on a plane (which isn't a problem if they just put them in checked luggage, which isn't a problem if they don't plan to actually get in a fight while on the plane), then do that, but don't make it too easy for them. They should have at least some difficulty integrating magic into a technological world (EM interference is a really good tool for this), otherwise you get runaway consequences.

Guns can be dealt with several ways. You can make it so that they use a sort of force-field that deflects high velocity projectiles, which would also prevent them from using firearms, you can make it so that they travel a lot and can't easily take guns with them everywhere, you can make it so that they have at least a couple of simple spells that effectively render firearms redundant. Or you can just let them use guns sometimes. The key advantage of a sword would be that they could either use it to dispel magical defenses (on the steel is baneful to magic theory) or they could imbue a hand-held weapon with some of their power to give it awesome light-sabery capabilities like cutting through ferro-concrete and deflecting blasters (and other "clumsy or random" weapons).

Thanks too for your thoughts about guns. At one point, one of the boys is flying and I wanted to have a bad guy shoot him down with a shotgun, not a magic spell. (The boy hasn't spotted the bad guy, so he can't put up a shield to protect himself.) The boys have a friend (a soldier) who has a sidearm and wants to help them fight, but they won't let him. So I'm dealing with the gun issue in a couple of places (at least) and need to sort out why they wouldn't just buy or conjure Uzis to take care of the bad guys quickly. You've given me food for thought. Thanks!

Jason - your comment about the volatility of gunpowder and explosives made something click in my brain. Not sure what it is yet, but an idea is forming. Thanks!!

The "best" way to beat a magic user in a roll playing world is generally to get in his/her face and poke said mage with a sword. Why? Because most magic users in GPG worlds DON'T have a lot of skills with swords AND when they cast thier spells they wave thier arms and mutter a lot which opens them up to attacks where they can't defend.

In my first two WIPs I have characters fighting primarily by sword, because the one magic user is trying to hide what he is. By the third WIP, there are 3 mages and everyone knows who they are. One is the old D&D type of mage who relies most heavily on magic. So far he hasn't gotten into any close quarters fighting but if he did, he'd be in trouble and have to rely on hand to hand to keep his hide intact until someone who really knew how to use a sword can save him. The one who no longer is in hiding fights using magic and sword having been trained extensively in both but on close quarters fighting must rely on the sword because of the disadvantages of using magic in hand to hand combat. The one being trained will also use both because of who is training her.

To just rely on magic seems unrealistic. You are god, make rules for the magic that make sense and stay internally consistent. But, I suspect your two MCs are going to be in a position where magic is not an option and they have to slug it out.

Anyway, the inherent mechanisms of a device have a significant impact on how that device is percieved. For example, the light-saber seems high-tech because it has "power cells" and a blade formed of laser energy confined in a high-intensity magnetic field. It feels appropriate to a warrior who understands and uses advanced technology, it would seem dangerous in the hands of a little kid.

A magical transforming weapon seems very little kiddish, if the "portable" form looked like a cell-phone or fashion accessory, it would totally seem like a girl's thing and if it's a spoon or pocketknife or pen it totally seems like a boy's thing. Besides, you're taking the easy way out of a problem that you can force your protagonists to confront and overcome using their own wits. If you're tempted to do something solely to make things easier for your protagonists, then don't do it!. Making your protagonists subject to mundane hassles like figuring out how to have their swords with them when they really need them is enourmously important in maintaining reader sympathy.

Little kids want to be allowed to carry a sword everywhere.

Adults want to see what a hassle it is to actually try it.

I like the "ammo can easily be exploded" idea. I've always loved destructable ammo, secondaries are the spice of combat Several simple spells could be posited as useful for that kind of thing.

The D&D trouble with spells in close combat is that spell-casting typically has both a somatic (arm-waving) and verbal component. If you try to cast spells without waving your arms and speaking, then you'll be limited to spells with which you are very familiar and you won't be able to cast them at full power (in D&D this works by increasing the required level to cast the spell that way, and I think you have to pick up a special skill too). Notably, the kidou in Bleach work pretty much the same way, it makes a good tactical element to throw into a scene if somebody has to be protected while they complete a longish incantation. If they also have to maintain their concentration and keep at it even when taking the occasional wound, then it becomes quite dramatic.

And thanks for the explanation, even if I can't figure out how to make use of it for my novel! At least it's helping me think in different directions.

The old Shadow ploy of clouding men's minds works well. So well, it became a "Jedi mind trick" for the Star Wars series. "These aren't the 'droids you are looking for."

The point about the tactical implications of your magic system is important, otherwise you're fights will be composed entirely of boring sounding lists of made up spells. You have to put definite constraints on what can and cannot be accomplished at any given point in the story, as well as why or you're story will not appeal to a thinking audience. Likewise, you must come up with solutions that require a modicum of cleverness from your characters rather than bailing them out with your authorial powers, otherwise readers will get bored.

Survivor, my fights aren't made up of lists of spells. People get hurt, some die, some burst into flames (after being hit with an Incendiary Charm) and run away screaming before they die. My boys are outnumbered and out-skilled, getting a victory with a spell that slips past the bad guy's magical shield (or sword - I'm still working on this stuff). The boys are good at swordplay but the bad guy is much better, having 20 years more experience and no conscience to slow him down. The bad guy escapes (it's at least a trilogy - they get him in the third book) and the boys go off to nurse their wounds and heal enough to fight another day. Does that sound like I've bailed them out? (Serious question) I've tried to let the action go where it will and be as involved as it wants to be, but as was stated in the other thread about fights, a blow-by-blow description of hte battle would be boring (to me, anyway). These books are more about the characters and how they learn magic and develop their skills than they are about the battles, although that bad guy is a threat that hangs over them constantly. So how do you suggest I improve on this? And I DID think about the logical implications of the swords. They're attuned to the boys. They won't extend for anyone else, nor will they shrink for anyone but the boys and the swordmaker. I'm seriously open to suggestions here, but I'm still confused about what to do about making the swords easy to carry in 21st century London streets. Thanks for the input. I'll try to digest it and see what I can do to improve things.

The basic point here is problem solving. Intelligent readers (the vast majority of those who read a lot) want to read stories in which the characters demonstrate practical intelligence by solving problems which the reader can understand. Every time you resort to "I'm solving this problem by magic", you lose a bit of the intelligent reader's interest. When creating a magic system, you must create consistent and reasonable liabilities that exist as a result of each bit of magic in your system. If the swords change size without any downside, that's worse than if they have to worry about the enemies figuring out how to shrink/grow the things at inconvenient times.

Survivor, I appreciate your comments, but I'm getting frustrated (although I'm sure that isn't your intention) - I'm about ready to throw the swords out if they're going to be so much trouble. I have a LOT of very intelligent readers of my Harry Potter fanfics, including people serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and on submarines (I'm very serious), some of whom are officers in the military, who say my battles are extremely well done (in the HP fics). I have a Naval Commander as one of my betas, and he thinks my battles are well-done too. Adding swords is causing me problems, so I may just need to delete them. I asked for help here and on several other sites to get me thinking along different paths so I can solve this problem, and I've had a lot of interesting solutions presented to me, but haven't figured out how to make any of them work yet. I'm still in thinking mode on this, but need to get it worked out soon, as that battle is written and I need to touch it up and move on to finish the novel.

Survivor, what would you consider an "intelligent" way to deal with the sword-carrying problem? I'm honestly stumped, and you're the only person who's raised such an objection (althought Jason has just agreed with you). So do you have a solution? Even a hint would be a help.

One of my betas suggested the swords could meld/merge/sink into/something like that the boys' legs somehow. That sounds pretty darned uncomfortable to me, unless they carried their daggers in sheaths on their thighs. That could work, and then they'd just have to enlarge them into swords. But again, you'll probably object to them being able to change size. My brain is stuck in that "changing size" rut, so I'd appreciate suggestions for other solutions. Thanks.

Go to a store like Cheasapeake Knife or any of the websites that sell medevial costume and spend the $200 or so on a sword. Play with it. That's research. It will give you a good idea of the weight, movement, etc.

The biggest issue I've had with a sword and sheath hanging down the outside of my leg is sitting. You have to move the blade out of the way before you can slide into a seat.

If they've had significant training with the swords, running with them should be second nature. The boys should naturally adjust the blade. They would put their hands on the hilt and tilt the tip back slightly to avoid getting tangled it them. There should be very little concious thought to the process.

Ask your Navy friend if he: (1) notices the sword when he is in dress uniforn; or (2) notices moving his weapon to allow him to run when he's had to. While he might notice the sword in his dress uniform because he's not always in that outfit, he probably doesn't think of moving the weapon out of his way. I have a friend who is an army grunt, he doesn't think about where his weapon is, he knows, because it is part of him. The swords should be the same thing for the boys.

If their lives are dependant on the swords, they might have custom made possessions: backpacks, golf bags, whatever, designed to house the blade and keep it accessable.

Also, there are what amount to shoulder holsters which would allow the sword to hang between thier shoulder blades, which means it could be hidden under clothing and longer hair. BUT it also means it has to fit within certain dimensions and drawing them can be an issue given the situation.

Another option is using daggers with leg or arm sheathes. It is possible to defend against a sword with a dagger but much, much harder and needs specialized training.

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But they're actually full-sized swords - it's just hard to walk with a sword banging into your leg, so they carry them as daggers instead, just enlarging them when they draw them.

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I did skim the thread, so if someone else has pointed out the Freudian suggestion of these swords, I apologize. I mean, people make those jokes about light sabers as well.

On their fight with the bad guy, the younger brother is usually fighting the other guys who are with the bad guy while the older brother fights the main bad guy. Near the end of this battle where they use swords for the first time, the younger brother gets rid of the other combatants and joins his brother in fighting the bad guy. The bad guy has years more mileage in combat than they do, and he has no conscience, so despite the 2 to 1 odds, the boys are in serious danger. But they're also talented, and, like Harry Potter, lucky. Lucky shots do happen, and one happens here which makes the bad guy retreat (and live to fight another day). I do keep Harry in the back of my mind, along with other fantasy books I've read. My guys are powerful but not "all powerful" - they make mistakes and get hurt, but they survive and keep going. Anyway, thanks for your ideas!!

Jason, I haven't shown any "rules" for the swords except for the boys training with them, so anything I do here establishes a rule, seems to me. I'm thinking that portal idea will work best for me. Thanks for your comments.

Franc li, you're silly! Swords are part of elvish and fairy warfare, and my boys are part-fairy and are trained in both fairy and elvish warfare - nothing Freudian about it! LOL! As for the cost of casting a lethal spell - in most fantasies I've read, there is no more cost for a lethal spell than another combat spell. My spells make the casters tired to the point where they need their magic restored by fairies in order for their wounds to heal quickly (they wouldn't be in as bad a shape if they weren't bleeding profusely at the time - in my world, magic's in the blood). I've based my ideas on some of the powers fairies have in various books I've read while researching them (not novels - books about fairies). I'm wondering if a lot of this "cost of magic" stuff you guys mention goes back to gaming. In the books I've read (and I've read loads of them), the only "cost" is weariness, which goes away with rest. My books aren't based on games - I don't do games. I know a lot of you do, but some of us just aren't into games, and my books reflect that, as do the books I read. What novels show a cost to the wizard for casting spells such as you're talking about? They must be by authors I haven't discovered yet. Thanks for your comments!

Still looking for that hint from you to help me start thinking in different directions!

Daggers may also be a better choice than swords. They're hidable and throwable, especially if your characters can magically reclaim them from a distance.

You could also hide the swords with cloaks. My friend has a 5 ft sword and he can hide it under his cloak. Add some shades and your characters look like total badasses.

Go out, rent Final Fantasy: Advent Children on DVD, and watch the fight between Cloud and Sephiroth. They used small amounts of visible magic in that fight, but have you ever considered that magic is used for more than just fighting? It could be used for movement which would give the wielder an enormous boon over the one they're fighting. Just think about how hard it would be to fight against someone who could jump over your head and stab you in the back before you realized what happened?
Then, when you're done watching Advent Children, Go watch Star Wars Episode II and watch the fight scene between Yoda and what's-his-face...Once again, movement, not just combat.

Oh yeah...another suggestion. I just finished reading Christopher Paolini's _Eragon_. Amazing book and I'm planning on seeing the movie Friday...but that's beside the poing. Read how they used magic and swordsmanship in that book as well.

In a nutshell, my advice would follow everyone else's in that you should go to the Anime genre for some "tips". But, then I'd toss in go read a butt-load (pardon the language) of Fantasy/Sci-fi books.

Just my two cents...If you don't like 'em, I'd like a refund then.

Mercedes Lackey's Winds of Fate, Change, & Fury, as well as Oathbound, Oath Breakers, and OathBlood have a magical sword as a "character". Though one of the last three titles are a combination of the other two.

I agree that having an enchantment on the sword would be an easy way to hide it. Perhaps that could be a spell that they are having trouble with... Or perhaps it was a parting gift. But then again, perhaps the changing size was a parting gift. How strong of magic users are they? Sometimes authors with different levels of users, such as hedge wizard journeyman, master, adept, and sorcerer, will have the person graduating to another level perform a special spell, to signify their entry. (One character created a hotspring for the clan to use.)

Another idea for hiding it would be a back sheath. Yes, it does restrict movement and they would need to get used to it, but it is a real thing. Anita Blake in, I believe The Killing Dance, has one and goes a little (I do mean a little) in to what it is like wearing one. Though that book started the risqueness that her books are now.

As for lethal spells.. In Mercedes Lackey's books, that is one spell that will kill anyone that you are fighting... However, it uses all energy you can call including your life. So, with that, you use it, you die.

Anyway - Quantumphotonkid, I've never heard of a "moogle pocket" but it sounds similar to something someone else suggested, a "dimensional portal." My guys make portals, so the portal idea would work. It's one of the things I'm considering now. (I'm printing out the ideas that seem like something I can work with so I can spend time thinking how each would work and how I would write those scenes.) Daggers being reclaimed from a distance is an interesting idea, too. I'm pretty good with throwing knives, although I haven't thrown any in years. Dunno why I didn't think of that! Cloaks and sunglasses sound very "Matrix," LOL! Not that there's anything wrong with that, but my guys aren't the cloak and shades type - I just can't see them dressing that way. And don't cops look for people dressing that way these days, particularly in loose black trenchcoats (think Columbine - a lot of the mass shootings in recent years have involved people in long black trenchcoats. We wont' talk about my long black Outback coat. . .heehee. I only wear it when I'm going to a horse event in the rain.) Thanks for the ideas!

Starsin, thanks for the names of the DVDs and the fights you think I should watch. I agree, what you describe sounds very much like what I want to portray, so watching those would probably be a help. Thanks a bunch! I want to watch "Eragon" too. Haven't read the book yet. Thanks for letting me know that's another good resource.

Survivor, Jason, I appreciate all the ideas you've shared! My first novel will start the publisher rounds early in 2007 (hopefully - depends on how long the final polish takes!) I'm glad I waited to start marketing it until I had the sequel's plot written, since there were a couple of things I decided to change in the first one based on how things evolved in the second. I'll probably write the third before the second one goes to the publishing rounds in case I see other things that need to be changed to make them all "agree." I'll certainly post on here when they're published!! And the Hatrack River group will be include in my acknowledgements!

Weeboing (cute name!) - how would I search for these Everquest things? I'm not that computer literate, beyond typing. A magical sword as a character - that's an interesting take on things! As for how strong the boys are in magic - they're mages, which in my world is the highest order of magical being (witch is lowest - and men and women both can be witches; wizard is next highest, and again, men and women can both be wizards; mage is the top of the heap). My boys are blessed with extra power (although it's untrained and uncontrolled at times in the first book and here and there in the second, as they learn magic) because they're "Star Sons" (which is the title of the first novel). I don't have a "graduating to different levels" in my novels, just mastering the control of their magic and the skills available to them, but that graduating thing is an interesting idea. Several people have mentioned back sheaths, and I'm beginning to like that idea. Thanks for mentioning the book where the author describes what it's like to wear one! I'll add that to my research list. And OOOOOoooo, I like the concept you mentioned where a certain killing spell can use up ALL your energy and take your life. Interesting concept! Thanks for all your suggestions!

You guys are all GREAT! I can see my way past the block now. I'll rough out the scene and try various of the suggestions I've been given for hiding the swords and will check out those films, books and games (if I can find them!) before fleshing out the battle itself. Thank you SO MUCH! And again, if I've been rude, please forgive me. Thanks again!

Just a thought.

Another thought: guns are easier to carry and conceal than swords. Even rifles--especially stubby ones like lever guns--are easy to carry and run with with a good sling.

Or

When not in use they take the shape of a coin, jewel, pendant etc.

Or

Maybe they produce the sword from a magic sigil, crest, burn on their palm.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. Tried to avoid stuff that was too cliche.