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The "sensitive topic" thread has kicked into high gear (yes, I know it's a cliche) something going through my head for the last year or so. Could be the result of losing a case that I really shouldn't have, but I suspect it's more than that.
What I've been noticing is that as sci fi and fantasy worlds are created, the author needs to adopt either, implicitly or explictly, a form of law or justice. Yes, I intentionally separated those two concepts.
As examples from my recent reading:
In Ann Bishop's Black Jewels series, murder is not illegal. Warlord Princes' killing tendancies are held in check by thier Queens. So she has a somewhat feudal system based somewhat on chivalry. Payment for crimes is often done through pain prior to death and beyond death as administred by the High Lord of Hall before your soul is released to the Darkness.
In the Mountain's Call series by Caitlin Brennan, an MC interrupts a would be rape and summarily using his magic to incapacitate the assailants and then castrates them. The base system is a monarchy.
In George Orwell's 1984 Big Brother uses mind control and torture to keep his version of peace.
So, the question is: what forms of justice or law have you used in your writing? What forms have you found the most effective or believable in books you've read?
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EYE FOR EYE. And MIND CONTROL. Are my favorite ones to mix together into a sort of marshal law like way of getting things done. Rommel Fenrir Wolf II Posts: 856 | Registered: Nov 2006
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The ones I've always found the most compelling and interesting is where there is no government or legal system whatsoever, and justice takes care of itself. Sort of like old west justice.
One of the best stories where this worked is Heinlein's The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. The Loonies in that book didn't have any real laws and just let things take care of themselves. Anyone could be hired as a "judge", agreeable to both parties, and his say was final. The worst punishment was Out-The-Airlock without a suit. If someone abused this form of justice by something like unjustly judging someone and then throwing them out an airlock, then they risked being judged for that as well.
The way Heinlein did it, I didn't ever question it's validity, though I can see how chaos could grow out of such a loose system.
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I really like how you separated the two concepts of, "law," and, "justice."
Now, how they've been applied in what I've recently read is a puzzle. Ususally they tend to be at odds with one another, and that make an interesting conundrum for the protaganists.
Hmm..gotta go think about this one.
[This message has been edited by mommiller (edited March 08, 2007).]
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I have used a system where domestic violence, brawling, thefts and merchant disputes are judged by local magisters in a piepowder court . Anything more serious or that is not clear-cut or where the offender is unknown is referred to the guild of Exorcists. This effectiveness of the guild, the detection, apprehension of the offender etc relies on the 'worthiness' and the spiritual discernment of the Exorcist assigned to the case. The Guild and it's members is under the rule of the Lord High Exorcist who himself is answerable to a Chamber of Seers who have unlimited jurisdiction.
PS: This post isn't very clear but thought you might be interested in a system that at the upper levels has a different method of obtaining 'proof'.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited March 08, 2007).]
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The system I use is no mater the crime if you are convicted 3 times you are put to death. And people are fine with it because they are brain washed into believing what ever the Government tells them. Rommel Fenrir Wolf II Posts: 856 | Registered: Nov 2006
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I've used police such as Sheriff, Local, and Military forms of Law and religious judges in my fantasy novel and western-type marshalls in my Space Opera.
I've read all sorts:
LAW ENFORCEMENT:
Military Planetary Space Navy Federation of Planets Space Navy Royal Navy Country's Army Planetary Army Federation Army Royal Army Religious Army
Police City/Town Police County Sheriff State Police Corporate Police Space Marshalls Space Detectives Planetary Police Time Police Federation Marshalls Marshalls Lord High Marshalls Wardens
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U.N Courts there’s an oxymoron for you. HAHAHA cough, cough, wheeze. God I have to quit smoking I nearly hacked up a lung reading that. Rommel Fenrir Wolf II Posts: 856 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: The way Heinlein did it, I didn't ever question it's validity, though I can see how chaos could grow out of such a loose system.
Have you ever thought of our own system? Sometimes I think there are so many laws that we spend a lot of our time prosecuting minor offenses, then we run out of time and money to go after murderers, rapists, and child molesters. I recently saw an episode of That 70's Show where Red and his wife (the adults on the show) are caught making out in their car. Red tells the cop that he should be going after pot-heads instead.
What harm is caused by two people making out in a car? For that matter, what harm is caused to society by smoking pot?
I think we can learn a lot on how to structure our governments in our writing on actual governments. That can provide the milieu for the story.
There is often little justice in our world even with strict laws. Would there be more justice in a world with fewer laws? Do more laws mean the government can abuse its citizens? Was there more justice in the old west, or was it simply a matter of the fastest gun?
I read "The Once and Future King" by T.H. White. Arthur's son advocated that a system of lawyers that fought for a client would be better than having to hire a champion (knight) to literally fight for you. Arthur countered, saying that it really didn't matter if it was a fight to the death or a fight of words because in the end, who had the most money, would usually win. Of course, that often happens in our society. Money rules all.
quote: There is often little justice in our world even with strict laws. Would there be more justice in a world with fewer laws? Do more laws mean the government can abuse its citizens? Was there more justice in the old west, or was it simply a matter of the fastest gun?
Which is why I made a distinction between law and justice.
There are lots of "dumb" laws. There are many times when justice isn't necessarily the result the law says should occur.
When you get down to the basics of applying law it's an arbitray decision based on what a handful of people or (in the case of a bench trial) just one. It's as much about convincing someone your side is right and the law should be applied to benefit you.
The use of technology in the courtroom changes everything too. We can now present evidence electronically. I click on a document on my computer and it opens on computer screens at the Judge's bench, the witness seat, opposing counsel's table and the jury box. The technology can be a benefit or not. There are times lawyers will intentionally make a mistake in calling up a document to create a connection with the jury, especially if the jury is not from a metro. area. The opposite is true too.
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InarticulateBabbler what Rommel is trying to say is he thinks they are a joke. He hates the U.N because they trying to keep the country he loves down. He isn’t saying you like them. I have known him for many years and yes he is crazy. But not stupid. He doesn’t stereo type people unless he has good reason to do so. OMAGAOFTHEALPHA Posts: 26 | Registered: Mar 2007
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PS: The system I use in my writing is the exact same as Rommel’s, we use to write together so naturally they are the same. Posts: 26 | Registered: Mar 2007
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While reading Henning Mankell's, murder mystery, "Faceless Killers," I came across this bit of dialogue between two police officers as they wrapped up the case, but the perpetrators had not been caught, and it immediately brought to mind this thread.
quote:"In that case, we'll have to accept that at least we know the truth," said Rydberg. "Justice doesn't only mean that the people who commit the crimes are punished. It also means that we can never give up seeking the truth."
[This message has been edited by mommiller (edited March 11, 2007).]
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. Anything more serious or that is not clear-cut or where the offender is unknown is referred to the guild of Exorcists. This effectiveness of the guild, the detection, apprehension of the offender etc relies on the 'worthiness' and the spiritual discernment of the Exorcist assigned to the case. The Guild and it's members is under the rule of the Lord High Exorcist who himself is answerable to a Chamber of Seers who have unlimited jurisdiction.
