posted
I've been trying to understand something for a while. I think I might be missing something, so I hope someone can explain something to me.
As an example, I saw this today in F&F. "How does the 6yo POV know that 'none of them know about this tunnel'?"
I don't understand this. If it is written from the point-of-view of a character, then isn't the statement going to be the character's perception of things? By writing this, isn't the author essentially saying, "My understanding is, none of them know about this tunnel?"
Except that, "My understanding" would draw attention to the writing and away from the character, violate immersion, so it should be dropped (in my opinion). Especially since everything in the story is assumed to be according to the character's understanding anyway, unless the story is global.
I feel it's as if if the text said, "Bill Clinton is a woman." That's the character's viewpoint. (Obviously, we'd need to understand why, in that case.) We know it's not a fact of reality, but what the character perceives (somehow.) Or, "It was a hot day." Fact or not, it's still what the character perceives.
I've also seen (here and elsewhere) writers claim "PoV violation" over things like "The door opened" instead of "[u]She saw[/u] the door open."
To me, it seems obvious that the PoV character is seeing things. It seems to me it would be a PoV violation if the character couldn't see it happen, but I don't feel the reader need to be reminded that the PoV character is seeing everything. Again, I feel the tags will break immersion and draw attention to the writing.
I hope I explained my viewpoint well enough. I've been studying statements like that in F&F and on another board for a while, trying to understand what I'm missing. It's not just one person saying it, so I'm trying to assume there's something I'm missing. I'd be happy if someone could explain to me what I'm not seeing in all this.
posted
I think it goes to credibility as often as it goes to violations of viewpoint. Thoughts of other characters have to be conveyed to the POV before knowledge of them is credible. I can speak to your first example, at least. It doesn't seem credible that the character could deduce enough to make the statement. How the POV came to that perception is missing and appears to be important. Also, it came across as infodump instead of a childish conspiracy implied by the statement that followed.
I do agree with you that "The door opened" is equivalent to "[u]She saw[/u] the door open" when the first is embedded in POV context. The character directly sensed the door, so the statement is easily believable. Where that POV cannot go is into the thoughts of the other person who opened the door.
posted
I also read it in High School, twenty years ago. I appreciate that thought, but I'm actually looking for specific things with this question, not a general manual on PoV. I have OSC's Characters and Viewpoint for that, which I like very well.
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posted
If a character expresses a conclusion or insight that I as a reader don't get (I don't see how the character reached that conclusion, or how the character knew whatever was needed in order to come up with the insight), it throws me right out of the story.
When I, as a reader or a critiquer, ask "how did he know that?" about a character, it's because I feel that the writer has not been clear enough. I need some kind of hint about how a character arrived at the knowledge before I can believe that he knows it.
Writers need to be careful not to insert their own understanding into a character's point of view, especially if the character is not likely to share the writer's understanding.
posted
The POV character is not necessarily the narrater is not necessarily the author.
The author writes according to what is important to the narrator, and the narrator "speaks" according the POV he is following. However, he (the narrator) is not necessarily in the same mind as the POV character, so he does not necessarily have the functional and intellectual restrictions that the POV character has. (Sometimes he might be the child POV character at a later, more mature time.)
The door opened is not necessarily equivalent to she saw the door open. It could simply mean that it opened in that character's presence, and the POV character might not even notice it until a minute later. (Or something like that.)
There are varying degrees of omniscience and points of view that can be used, and the omniscience refers to how much of the POV charater's or *multiple* characters' thoughts the narrator can perceive. But it does not restrict the narration to the characters' thoughts. Varying degrees of restriction can be used for varied kinds of effects.
All that being said, you want to have a tight and consistent plan for your POV. Sloppiness will diminish the story.
Also, by the way, the audience of the narrator is not necessarily the reader. In some books, the reader is eavesdropping.
posted
I haven't seen all the examples you cite, but for the one where none of them knew about the tunnel, it sounds like you are right, it could be that the POV character thinks the others were unaware of it, which would presuppose the POV knew the others well enough to believe that, and it may or may not be correct. It could be a close third person POV or a bit of omni narration and not necessarily violate POV. The appropriateness of either would depend on the overall context, i.e., what the author had established as the viewpoint for the scene in question.
One thing to beware of is that having a bunch of what amounts to writing students critiquing is that some of the comments can be misunderstandings, either of what the story writer intended, or what the rules/conventions are. As a critiquer, I've been guilty of that (accidentally) more than once.
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