Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Sheik and stir

   
Author Topic: Sheik and stir
Kolona
Member
Member # 1438

 - posted      Profile for Kolona   Email Kolona         Edit/Delete Post 
Book burning, anyone?

Cambridge University Press last year published Alms for Jihad: Charity and Terrorism in the Islamic World by J. Millard Burr and Robert O. Collins. The book discussed how some charitable organizations funnel money to Islamic terrorists. Cambridge recently "agreed to burn all unsold copies of the book after it received a letter threatening legal action from Saudi billionaire Khalid bin Mahfouz." Cambridge will pay the Sheikh damages and contribute to his legal costs.

The authors are upset, needless to say, and say the publisher is accusing them of things they didn't do. They say the Cambridge legal department gave the book their okay before it was published, and that a lot of the info in the book can be found in the public record. Plus, the book has about a thousand footnotes.

Sheikh Mahfouz also sued Rachel Ehrenfeld for her book, Funding Evil: How Terrorism Is Financed soon after Bonus Books of Los Angeles published it and before it was released in the United Kingdom. The book now cannot be published in England. Mahjouz was awarded damages, but Ehrenfeld is refusing to pay. (Good for her.)

According to the Washington Times story of 9-3-07, in England "the onus is on the writer to refute allegations, meaning writers rarely prevail." Ehrenfeld says other writers' book proposals have been rejected because of Saudi Arabian subject matter.

Kelly Jane Torrance ends her article on this issue by noting that big newspapers like the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post haven't covered this story. Why? "All three have settled with Mr. Mahfouz in the past."

I'm mad. I hope this burns up a lot of you, too.


Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elan
Member
Member # 2442

 - posted      Profile for Elan           Edit/Delete Post 
I never understood the death campaign against Salman Rushdie. Books, to me, are beacons of light, of entertainment, of wisdom, or perhaps of folly. But for pete's sake, the content of them is not worth putting a person to death. If you don't like the content of the book, don't buy it. It's a shame that Cambridge is capitulating to extortion. But I can't say that I would willingly choose to live a life of seclusion like Mr. Rushdie has been forced into. And shame on Sheikh Mahfouz for using the law like a bludgeon in order to club free speech to death.
Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robert Nowall
Member
Member # 2764

 - posted      Profile for Robert Nowall   Email Robert Nowall         Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen the stories...it's my understanding that the book in question is published in the UK...I do not know if this book has an American edition, or if one is planned.
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JeanneT
Member
Member # 5709

 - posted      Profile for JeanneT   Email JeanneT         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And shame on Sheikh Mahfouz for using the law like a bludgeon in order to club free speech to death.

Sheikh Mahfouz lives in a country and vigorously supports a system that does not believe in freedom of speech. Make no mistake about that. In fact, there are few freedoms guaranteed in Saudi Arabia, our good ally.

Posts: 1588 | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TaleSpinner
Member
Member # 5638

 - posted      Profile for TaleSpinner   Email TaleSpinner         Edit/Delete Post 
When the British Government bows to Saudi pressure and stifles an investigation into allegations of corruption at BAE, what chance does a publisher have? One of our Government's more shameful decisions, I think.

More at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems#Saudi_Arabian_contracts

Pat


Posts: 1796 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
That's true his culture doesn't sit well with freedom of speech. But my culture happens to believe it is a basic human right. I don't think, when conflicting, that it is right for him to think he can impose his cultural beliefs upon another culture. The authors of the book in question cite their sources and present a case that is as factual as they can make it, and admit some level of possible error. (I'm certain of this.) That's just shameful that the plug is pulled on it because of extortionist pressure.

And for the record I think it's better to give someone freedom of speech who doesn't believe in it, than to take it from someone who does.


Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
Don't accept such simplistic evaluations that may lead you to believe that CUP is bowing to extortion. CUP's reaction is more complicated than that.

One thing to consider is that their action was taken in consultation with the book's authors. It seem that the authors' had included false/unsupported statements gleaned from other publications; assertions that had already been proved unjust, wrong or misleading in the high court. These statements not only undermined the value of the book but the lack of rigour also called into question the professionalism and credibility of the authors. It appears they did not do the most basic of academic tasks of checking their facts.

CUP requested that the American Library Association either pulp the book, return it or otherwise “ensure that readers who may consult this book in the future are made aware of its erroneous statements and to ensure that this defamation is not perpetuated.”

So to that end, for those who see some value in keeping the book on the shelves, the CUP have issued an errata sheet and asked that it be attached inside the front cover of the book.

The question is whether, considering the controversy, the ALA will have courage enough to act. I hope they at least recommend that the errata sheet be included.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 09, 2007).]


Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JeanneT
Member
Member # 5709

 - posted      Profile for JeanneT   Email JeanneT         Edit/Delete Post 
Of course, you and I think that, Zero. I was not arguing against freedom of speech which I have no doubt that we both very much believe in.

My point was that someone who doesn't believe in freedom of speech in the first place won't feel the same way. He doesn't value or even want freedom of speech in his own country, and, frankly, I have no doubt he would do anything possible to destroy freedom of speech and impose his sectarian values on everyone else in the world.

I am certainly not saying this is a good thing, only that it is, I believe, a fact.


Posts: 1588 | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
I agree, I believe that is a fact as well. but a very dismal and inhumane fact. And one that I would fight against, if given the opportunity.
Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JeanneT
Member
Member # 5709

 - posted      Profile for JeanneT   Email JeanneT         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, here we are verging on the political. Although I suspect we agree on this entire topic or at least a large part of it, I won't comment further.
Posts: 1588 | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
arriki
Member
Member # 3079

 - posted      Profile for arriki   Email arriki         Edit/Delete Post 
How often as writers do we assume freedom of speech in our invented cultures? Assume the cultures accept it as desirable?

Alien cultures? Advanced human cultures? Magic human cultures?


Posts: 1580 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
That's an interesting point. But whether it's a failure on my part or a failure on evolution, I cannot even comprehend the notion that freedom of speech would be less than desireable. But I understand the motivation for suppressing others, and usually it's less than benign...

I wonder how our good friend would respond if we sued him for writing a book about why he things hamburgers taste bad, if ever he chose to do so.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited September 10, 2007).]


Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
What is more important, 'freedom of speech' or 'truth and justice'?


Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lehollis
Member
Member # 2883

 - posted      Profile for lehollis   Email lehollis         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But whether it's a failure on my part or a failure on evolution, I cannot even comprehend the notion that freedom of speech would be less than desireable.

I wrote a story about that recently. It explored the idea that information could be dangerous. Quite fun. I should send it off to someone.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, that sounds like an interesting story.
Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
HuntGod
Member
Member # 2259

 - posted      Profile for HuntGod           Edit/Delete Post 
I'd argue that you could not have "truth and justice" without "free speech".

Second thing a dictator does after disarming the populace is take over the press.

So I would say "free speech" is more important than "truth and justice", but I'd also say that "truth and justice" is a result of having a "free and open" press.


Posts: 552 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
HuntGod: So to be clear, you believe that free speach is more important than fairness and accuracy?
.
Do you think free speech leads to truth and justice? Or is it more accurate to say that you think it promotes truth and justice in a democratic society?
.
Also, under what circumstances do you think the freedom of speech can be legitimately or justifiably limited by the state?
.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 11, 2007).]


Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
good questions all,

but I understood huntgod to mean that "truth and justice" was a natural consequence of "free speech" but not necessarily a direct one. Or rather, she/he was saying (I think) that the two are inseparable. Either you have truth and justice and free speech, or you have none of the above. In that context they're all really part of some larger organism. But I'm not sure what to call it exactly. Maybe "right-ness" ? or "good" ?

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited September 11, 2007).]


Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
...or perhaps that without free speech a government, so disposed, would find it easier to undermine other human rights.
Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
HuntGod
Member
Member # 2259

 - posted      Profile for HuntGod           Edit/Delete Post 
What Zero said.

I do not believe you can have a truthful or just society without free speech. That said there needs to be accountability and responsibility. Too often it seems that people think just because you have the right to do something that you should.

In an unregulated society you'd have the freedom to yell "fire" in a movie theater, even in a regulated society you have that right, there are however legal consequences.

As a whole you must make some sacrifices in freedoms to live in a "safe" world. Where you draw those lines and how you enforce them makes all the difference.

As to where an when a government has the right to curtail or infringe those rights to free speech, I'd draw that line at the point that the speech in question creates or engenders a significant disruption to civil order. I understand that is not very specific, but thats the best I can do at 2:30 am.


Posts: 552 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
I think it usually comes down to double-coincident rights. Or, freedoms that contradict each other. For example person A has the freedom to yell "fire" in the crowded theater, however, persons B-Z have the right to enjoy the film/play without being interrupted by a dangerous false alarm.

I believe all freedoms are assumed free (this feels cheesy putting it like this) until they conflict, and the more important freedom takes the right-away, so to speak, and rolls over the other. What determines freedom priority, I think, can be identified by the effects they have and how many people they affect.


Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kolona
Member
Member # 1438

 - posted      Profile for Kolona   Email Kolona         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
the content of [books] is not worth putting a person to death.

What if someone published a book about how he murdered his wife? It could happen.

quote:
I can't say that I would willingly choose to live a life of seclusion like Mr. Rushdie has been forced into.

Similar to the “never say never” adage, no one really knows how they’d react in a given situation. I’d like to believe that I’d live up to all my principles no matter what, but that pesky human factor is there.

In the Cambridge University Press case, as far as has been reported, the threats were monetary, so no lives were at stake. But the threats weren’t isolated; they were part of a pattern. It wasn’t only Burr and Collins’ book, but Ehrenfeld’s as well, who also claims to know of other authors’ book proposals that have been squelched, and the article reports that at least three major newspapers have been sued by the same Saudi moneyman.

quote:
One thing to consider is that [CUP’s] action was taken in consultation with the book's authors.

It doesn’t sound like the authors were too happy about the results of the “consultation.” They didn’t join in CUP’s apology to the sheik and stand by their scholarship.
quote:
It seem that the authors' had included false/unsupported statements gleaned from other publications; assertions that had already been proved unjust, wrong or misleading in the high court. These statements not only undermined the value of the book but the lack of rigour also called into question the professionalism and credibility of the authors. It appears they did not do the most basic of academic tasks of checking their facts.

Sounds like the jury is still out on that. The other sued author mentioned, Ehrenfeld, also refuses to apologize for her book, which apparently cites the same allegations, and has "not even a shadow of a doubt" that her accusations against bin Mahfouz are true. Ehrenfeld says there are "at least 36 cases" in England in which bin Mahfouz is using British law to silence his critics.

Plus, CUP’s legal team originally combed the book for a month and okayed it. (In the same vein, though – false and unsupported statements, wrong or misleading assertions -- all the books about man-made global warming should be sued off the shelves. )

My word, this Mahfouz guy has so much money, why doesn’t he publish his own book and refute all this – with footnotes, please.

quote:
CUP requested that the American Library Association either pulp the book, return it or otherwise “ensure that readers who may consult this book in the future are made aware of its erroneous statements and to ensure that this defamation is not perpetuated.”

CUP is just running scared. And it’s far too early in this thing for the ALA to start adding insult to injury.

But there is a “deeper significance of this case. Bin Mahfouz has a habit of using the English tort regime to squelch any unwanted discussion of his record. In America, the burden of proof in a libel suit lies with the plaintiff. In Britain, it lies with the defendant, which can make it terribly difficult and expensive to ward off a defamation charge, even if the balance of evidence supports the defendant….Mahfouz…sued [Ehrenfeld ] for libel in England, and Ehrenfeld chose not to contest it….Instead, she chose to fight this ruling in the U.S. court system.” (Duncan Currie, TheWeeklyStandard@://www.publicintegrity.org/article/invent_index.php?id=410)

Duncan Currie further wrote, “More than two years ago, the London Times warned that ‘U.S. publishers might have to stop contentious books being sold on the Internet in case they reach the 'claimant-friendly' English courts.’ So why hasn't this become a cause célèbre for American publishing firms and journalists?”

quote:
As to where an when a government has the right to curtail or infringe those rights to free speech, I'd draw that line at the point that the speech in question creates or engenders a significant disruption to civil order.

That’s far too ambiguous. I can envision a government that defines “disruption to civil order” in some dubious ways, including the “hate crime” tactic. Pastor Ake Green faced jail in Sweden for preaching the first chapter of Romans in the Bible, which speaks against homosexuality. Similarly, a group of Christians in Pennsylvania, including 75- and 70-year-old grandmothers, who shared their faith on a public sidewalk face 47 years in jail for hate crimes.

Zero is right:

quote:
But I understand the motivation for suppressing others, and usually it's less than benign...

And, the Founding Fathers of the United States disrupted the civil order with their notions about freedom from England, didn’t they?

Free speech allows for truth, while putting up with lies. It’s the only way justice is served.

In case anyone thinks I’m advocating publishing lies indiscriminately, rest assured I'm not. Free speech is a right and every right comes with a responsibility. Fairness and integrity come into play, and libel and slander laws try to keep everyone honest. But the old saying, “I don’t agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it,” speaks a wisdom that is too often missing today. Political correctness makes people afraid of their own thoughts and seeks to homogenize all discourse, while bullies like Sheik Mahfouz intimidate investigative reporting. Both hamper thoughtful consideration of important matters. Free speech cannot thrive when either runs rampant, and truth and justice become casualties.

The alternative to free speech, restricted speech, assigns someone as gatekeeper to ideas, which is okay until or unless you don’t agree with the gatekeeper. It’s not scientific, but I tend to think that the more someone tries to shut down ideas that conflict with his own, the more likely it is that his ideas cannot stand up to scrutiny.

Cambridge University Press should not have capitulated to Sheik Mahfouz. They did the publishing world a great disservice.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited September 13, 2007).]


Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
1: In Scotland, (land of the wild mountain haggis) there used to be three possible verdicts in a trial, they were: innocent, guilty and not proven. The latter verdict could in some circumstances be useful, especially if you wanted a person marked with suspicion and stigmatised despite the lack of any robust evidence.

2: In Indonesia, when a claim is made against a person and they are brought up on charges, the onus is upon the accused to prove that they are innocent. As it is notoriously difficult to prove you did not do something, this aspect of the legal system can be useful for the authorities when they are under pressure to convict someone... anyone... for a crime.

I believe the onus should be upon the claimant to prove their claims when challenged.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 13, 2007).]


Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
arriki
Member
Member # 3079

 - posted      Profile for arriki   Email arriki         Edit/Delete Post 
Reading novels about Russia (the Soviet Union), not any facts, I always got the impression that life required people to break minor laws merely to survive. Then, of course, there was always something they were truly "guilty" of when the law or powerful people needed an excuse to bring them to justice.

To me, that would be a terrible burden to live under. Always vulnerable to the legal system. Little better than lawlessness.


Posts: 1580 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoptoad
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for hoptoad   Email hoptoad         Edit/Delete Post 
I would like a response to my question in the context of this thread if anyone can be bothered.

Post repeated below:

quote:

1: In Scotland, (land of the wild mountain haggis) there used to be three possible verdicts in a trial, they were: innocent, guilty and not proven. The latter verdict could in some circumstances be useful, especially if you wanted a person marked with suspicion and stigmatised despite the lack of any robust evidence.
2: In Indonesia, when a claim is made against a person and they are brought up on charges, the onus is upon the accused to prove that they are innocent. As it is notoriously difficult to prove you did not do something, this aspect of the legal system can be useful for the authorities when they are under pressure to convict someone... anyone... for a crime.

I believe the onus should be upon the claimant to prove their claims when challenged.




Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wolfe_boy
Member
Member # 5456

 - posted      Profile for Wolfe_boy   Email Wolfe_boy         Edit/Delete Post 
I would agree with the statement you made, hoptoad. That's one of the many reasons I'm happy to live in Canada - the presumption of innocence.

Jayson Merryfield


Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lehollis
Member
Member # 2883

 - posted      Profile for lehollis   Email lehollis         Edit/Delete Post 
During the inquisition, one had to prove their innocence. However, at the beginning of their trial, the accused could make a list of those who had "mortal malice" towards them. Any witnesses on that list were removed from the trial.

Of course, it was the inquisition--innocence was rare. Your own torture-induced confessions were incriminating enough. And if you did prove your innocence, after two to five years in prison waiting for your trial--the church had claimed any property in order to pay for your torture, prison time, and trial. The inquisition wasn't funded by the church. It paid for itself by claiming anything it could from victims.

(Had to research the inquisition for my novel.)

Sorry--what was the question?

Well, one pet peeve of mine is writers who assume "Guilty Until Proven Innocent" should be some kind of universal truth, and that all societies have it unless they are explicitly evil.

Having to prove innocence means a simple accusation, with no proof, could incriminate a person. If they couldn't prove they weren't at the scene of the crime, they were considered guilty. It's hardly a logical system to me.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2