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Author Topic: Emdashes, dashes, semicolons, and commas (oh my!)
KayTi
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Which to use when? Emdashes are double dashes like this: -- Typically they don't have spaces on either side.

Dashes typically have spaces. Not talking about dashes within words/phrases like four-year-old, but dashes used to separate thoughts - like this one.

Semicolons I use to separate clauses that are really tightly related but each have subject/verb construction. Technically most semicolons I use could be separated to two sentences, but that would make the flow more choppy than I'd like.

Then there's the all-purpose comma. I use it a LOT. The reason I use these other devices is because I'm comma-happy and sometimes it gets to be a bit much.

What should I ACTUALLY be doing? (err...other than reading the appropriate sections of Elements of Style, clearly!)

Thanks!


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annepin
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I'm guessing you're writing this in response to my critique of your piece, and in fact, as I was doing it I got a little confused too. Of course, having touted Strunk and White, I can't find my copy, so I'll reference the 14th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style (published 1993).

Uses of the em dash (most commonly used) (and where are those durn bullet points?):

*denote a sudden break in thought that causes change in sentence structure.

* denote dialogue that has been interrupted

* introduce a phrase added to give emphasis or explanation in the main clause. (a comma can also be used for this purpose).

* introduce a phrase to define or enumerate an element in the sentence.

*Use before a an express such as "that is, namely" , but only if the break is greater than that signaled by a comma

* to denote referents of a collected pronoun that is the subject of the main sentence or clause.*

There's also the en dash, which is shorter than the em dash, and us used to indicate a range of dates: 1978-1999, is used in the place of a hyphen in a compound adjective when one of the elements is an open compound, or when two or more of the elements are already hyphenated.

There's also the 2-em and 3-em dashes, which I won't go into. The hyphen is used to separate numbers that are not inclusive, or in compound words.

On the use of the semi-colon:
* To mark a more important break in sentence flow than a comma would allow.
* To join two coordinate clauses
* To introduce phrases beginning with "then, however, thus, hence, indeed, accordingly, besides, therefore" if a comma might allow a chance in misreading.
* To join long, composite clauses that might contain commas.
* To list items in a long complex series that might contain clauses.
* To be used before an expression beginning with "That is, namely, ie, eg," if it requires a break greater than that signaled by a comma.
* Placed outside quotation marks or parentheses.

There's too much on commas to go into here...


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DebbieKW
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quote:
What should I ACTUALLY be doing? (err...other than reading the appropriate sections of Elements of Style, clearly!)

I suppose I should have just said this in my critique: When in doubt, I grab my grammar book (Little, Brown Handbook ) or go online to The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation at http://www.grammarbook.com/english_rules.asp . Both are consistent with the grammar rules I learned in high school and college, and the Blue Book is pretty easy to understand.

Someday I'm going to get the Chicago Manual of Style and read it since that's evidently what most book publishers use as their standard.

Edit: *laugh* I guess I'm not the only one that mentioned dash problems in my critique!

[This message has been edited by DebbieKW (edited September 26, 2007).]


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hoptoad
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Noah Lukeman, in The First Five Pages suggests that an overuse of commas is diagnostic of an inexperienced writer . He considers it a reason to suspect that the manuscript lacks craftsmanship.

Use a period when a period is required. Run-on sentences are a poor way of regulating flow, cadence etc. It is better to create more interesting 'whole' sentences of varying length.

I'm sure this post is a case of 'preaching to the choir'.


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Rick Norwood
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Never use a hyphen to indicate a break. Use an mdash. A hyphen is a joiner, not a divider.

When I do my second draft, I take out any commas that break the flow. If there is no pause for breath when you read the sentence aloud, you probably don't want that comma.

On the other hand, never use a comma at the beginning of a parenthetical remark without a comma at the end, and vice versa. This is for me the most annoying comma error.


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lehollis
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For manuscript, I've heard the formal method is to not use space before or after an emdash--like this. I doubt most editors would reject a manuscript if its done wring, but I'd like to know if that is indeed the formal method.

Alternatively, I've heard that the spaces on either side -- like this -- is informal. Anyone know?

I don't remember where I read it.


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annepin
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CMofS says to use no spaces between the em dash and the words. MSWord will automatically format an em dash if you enter two dashes without spaces between two words.

There's no talk of hyphens with spaces. I've seen that construct frequently on the internet, specifically on blogs.

I feel I should also add CMofS cautions against the excessive use of em dashes.

As for commas, well, The New Yorker was at one time infamous for its use of commas.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited September 26, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited September 26, 2007).]


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KayTi
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Anne and Debbie, just got me thinking about this, it's percolated for a while. Thanks for your attention to details. And Anne - thanks for the huge passage from CMoS - awesome!

Hop - are you accusing me of writing without craftsmanship? Ha! Diagnostic of an inexperienced writer. Ha! I laugh in your general direction. And, in my inexperienced-writing defense, I use periods when they're required, but also like to vary sentence length and structure. Makes reading more fun. If I get too period-heavy in my writing, it starts to feel rushed and flat and I can tell. I sometimes get too period-heavy in my writing. It starts to feel rushed. It also feels flat. I can tell.

Rick - a hyphen is a lover, eh? That clarifies it IMMENSELY for me. I think I've never learned that particular rule. Curse my lack of college-level writing coursework. Hey, in my defense, it's becauase I did really well on my AP English exam and tested out of it...I must have written SOMETHING good once to pass that one. LOL

Thanks all, I've learned a lot already. And had some fun doing it.


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Pyre Dynasty
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I just want to add what I got from my editing course

( ) = quiet/weak
, , = normal
-- -- =loud/strong


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hoptoad
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quote:

I laugh in your general direction.

Oh-ho! A pythonaster is unmasked!

BTW: It wasn't me. It was Noah Lukeman and it's indicative of the violence inherent in the system.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 26, 2007).]


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Robert Nowall
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Well, the learn-to-type-in-ten-easy-lessons book I used recommended three dashes---like this---but, by the time I found the consensus was two and two spaces -- like this -- the habit was too ingrained to stop.

*****

The French Taunter did more than just laugh in their general direction...


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Elan
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quote:
On the other hand, never use a comma at the beginning of a parenthetical remark without a comma at the end, and vice versa. This is for me the most annoying comma error.

I'll second that, and add the nuance of(This is one of my pet peeves): IF YOU INSERT THE NAME OF A CHARACTER WHO IS BEING ADDRESSED INTO THE DIALOG, IT MUST BE SET OFF BY COMMAS.

"Well, George, it isn't as easy as it looks."
"Jack, what do you want for lunch?"
"I hope you'll give me a second chance, Lisa."

USE COMMAS WHENEVER ONE CHARACTER ADDRESSES ANOTHER BY NAME IN DIALOG.

No comma needed in cases where a character name is merely referred to:
"I don't like that evil Lord Voldemort."
"If Frodo fails to get past the nazgul, all is lost."



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KayTi
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Help! Help! I'm being repressed.

And Phew, I'm guilty of the commaviolations listed. I'm an over-user, comma abuser.

And my editor friend gave me this input on semicolons (she's not edited fiction before, but has 10+ yrs in non-fiction editing.) I particularly liked the thought about using semicolons for effect. This resonates like so many other things about writing: if you understand the rules, then you can use them to your benefit. Here's her semicolon blurb:
Semicolons separate two complete, closely-related clauses. So something like this would use a semicolon:
She loved wearing bright colors; her favorite dress was fuschia.

You can also use a semicolon with a conjunction:
She loved wearing bright colors; but, her favorite dress was brown.

You could grammatically use a period instead of a semicolon (always); but the meaning of the sentence is enhanced by the semicolon, which emphasizes the relationship between the two independent clauses.


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lehollis
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I love semicolons!

Also, use commas for introductory clauses, dependant clauses that help "set the stage," so to speak. They start with words like after, although, because, since and others.

"After you go home, do your homework."

"Since you're here, help me re-rout power through the primary coupler to the main deflector dish."

"Meanwhile, they ate lunch."

There is more detail here: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_commaint.html


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oliverhouse
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It occurs to me that Noah Lukeman's A Dash of Style might be worth checking out. You can download the chapter on paragraphs and section breaks for 50 cents to see if it's your speed.
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rickfisher
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quote:
She loved wearing bright colors; but, her favorite dress was brown.
Actually, while using a semicolon here is slightly better (though not much) than using a period and starting the next sentence with "But", either of those things makes for extreme choppiness. The real problem here is that you do NOT want to use that comma after after "but".

Basically, commas should never come immediately after "and", "or", or "but", unless they're the first of a pair setting off a parenthetical phrase, as in:

quote:
She loved wearing bright colors; but, not counting her formal peacock and chartreuse evening gown, her favorite dress was brown.

The place where it is appropriate to use a semicolon before a coordinating conjunction is when at least one of the two complete clauses which it joins contains further punctuation of its own (as the sentence quoted above does, but should not). There is some disagreement about this. I've heard everything from "You should NEVER use a semicolon with a coordinating conjunction" to "You MUST ALWAYS use a semicolon with a coordinating conjunction if either part has additional punctuation." So use common sense and a trained ear. I almost always find the semicolon appropriate if the additional punctuation occurs in the first clause, and less often (but still sometimes) if it is in the second.

Examples:

quote:
"I am in my office on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursday afternoons, and every third Saturday morning from 9:30 until 10:45; but at other times you may find me in the back room of The Elk's Other Knee." (semicolon strongly advised)

"He looks gentle enough; but if you assume on that basis that you can safely insult his sister's honor, you're even stupider than your sister told me you were." (semicolon optional; I'd probably use a comma simply because I tend to use a few more semicolons than is probably good for me.)



As for the em-dash: the correct typographical method of inserting it is no spaces and two hyphens, as in "gobbledygook--more gobbledygook." On the other hand, "gobbledygook - more gobbledygook" (i.e., <space><hyphen><space> ) is simply wrong, though it does, perhaps, show up a bit better on the computer screen. (And I suppose some people find it easier to type.) Don't use it in any manuscript.

As with all such advice, there are some weird editors out there who want things done their own odd and eccentric way. Always do whatever they say to do, but follow the standard rules when they don't specify anything.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited September 29, 2007).]


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oliverhouse
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> I'd probably use a comma simply because I tend to use a few more semicolons than is probably good for me.

LOL... Reminds me of Yogi Berra's comment that "nobody goes there anymore -- it's too crowded!"

I agree with what Rick said here. You can see that I have a personal style of spaces around the dash, but I remove the spaces when I submit manuscripts.


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baduizt
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Officially, with a semi-colon there's an implied 'gap' in meaning or flow between the two parts of the sentence. They should stand alone, but not flow together as a follow-on idea, as a comma or colon would allow. Hence conjunctions can be problematic, because they do suggest a follow-on idea. But then there's the other use of semi-colons, which is 'rounding up the rampant comma'. This refers to a sentence with long lists with lots of parenthetical clauses and/or sentences where using lots and lots of commas would obfuscate the meaning. In this instance, you'd replace some of the commas with semi-colons. Lynne Trusse in 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' gives this as an example:

'Popotakis had tried a cinema, a dance hall, baccarat, and miniature golf; now he had four ping-pong tables. He had made good money, for the smart set of Jacksonburg were always hard put to get through the rainy season; the polyglot professional class had made it their rendezvous; even attaches from the legislations and younger members of the Jackson family had come there.' (Evelyn Waugh, 'Scoop', 1938)

She also goes on to explain: 'The sub-text of a semicolon is, "Now this is a hint. The elements of this sentence, although grammatically distinct, are actually elements for a single notion . . ."'

Hope that helps!

Regards


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JeanneT
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quote:
She loved wearing bright colors; but, her favorite dress was brown.

The standard punctuation before a coordinating conjunction joining two independent clauses (as we have here) is a comma unless the clauses have internal punctuation that would make the use of a comma confusing, and there is no reason for the comma after the coordinating conjuction.

While I don't consider a semi-colon incorrect in that situation, some people would. A more standard and correct version of that sentence would be: She loved wearing bright colors, but her favorite dress was brown.

Semi-colons are useful, but, as with any punctuation, shouldn't be thrown in just anywhere.


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