posted
That's what I am, right? A writer? Yea, of course. I love writing, I have a passion for it -- and I'm good at it. But here's where it gets messy. For all you who don't know me (which is everyone here) I'm a senior in high school and I'm not a straight A student. Not even straight B. Yes, you guessed it. I'm a C average student. *GASP*! "Dear lord this scum dares enter our forums!" That's the first part of my secret. The second part is that I slept through sixth-grade literature class and never bothered to memorize the fundamentals of the english language. Prepositions, linking verbs, conjunctions -- all the goodies. Does this affect my writing? Yes, I believe it does.Everything I know I lern't from reading books. Ah, how I love them. There is a small part of my life reserved for reading books. I'm a passionate human being, a philosopher, and an intelligent young man -- no matter what my transcript says. Well the question is this: is it wrong for someone to aspire to write, when they don't even understand the basics of english grammar? And hey, feel free to give me some lessons while you're at it! "Ta-tah for now!" (A phrase used by the insane Lee Weeks in OSC's 'Lost Boys') -Jayson
[This message has been edited by jaycloomis (edited November 24, 2007).]
posted
It isn't necessary to understand good grammar as long as you can write it. That doesn't mean that it isn't handy to know what someone means when they say "you over-use gerands." It's not a necessity, but it helps. If you have problems with both understanding AND using good grammar, that's a little more difficult. They it is pretty necessary to work on it, I think.
By the way I tend to recommend this website for anyone who does want to brush up.
posted
"is it wrong for someone to aspire to write, when they don't even understand the basics of english grammar?"
Absolutely not, but you should understand that before you can become a great (or even very good) writer, you're going to have to learn it. Expecting to write well without understanding the basics of the tool you use to write (language) would be like expecting to become a great mechanic without ever learning how screwdrivers, wrenches, and ratchets work. You can probably rig something together to get the job done, but it's never going to be as effective as using the tools that were meant to do the job.
Sorry...just like with any other skill, you have to do the boring parts, too, if you want to get good at it. Laziness won't get you anywhere.
posted
Hehe, tough love, willy. I'm probably going to have to teach myself everything I don't remember, unless I want to retake fifth grade english. Thanks for the advice! -Jayson
Posts: 62 | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
No matter how good your stories are, no matter how good everything else is, atrocious grammer will get you rejected fast. An editor can overlook a few errors, but if they're on the third line and have found six errors, they're going to pitch it.
So, learn the grammer while you're young.
But keep writing too. Just because you will have errors, it doesn't mean you have to stop writing until you figure it out. Being able to create good stories is a talent you need, too.
posted
Write, jay. Just write. The more you write, the more you will find yourself wanting to brush up on certain things, particularly when you submit some of what you wrote to people who you like and admire and they send back crits saying "hey, this is pretty good, but you need to make sure to punctuate correctly." You will run with pants aflame to the nearest used bookstore to find yourself some type of book to help you figure out how to punctuate correctly, because SOMEONE YOU LIKE AND ADMIRE SAID YOUR WORK WAS PRETTY GOOD!
You'll do it. It'll be fine.
FWIW, I've been writing only for this year. I'm a mom, I'm not a teenager anymore. I didn't sleep through 6th grade grammar class. I actually have no idea what year grammar was the emphasis, other than I know that I don't know the names of correct grammar stuff much. However, I know enough to know what I don't know...and then I ask. And I read. I've read about a dozen books on writing this year, some more detailed than others. And I have a copy of Strunk and White. Which I could reference if needed. And I ask people here my tricky questions. I read websites for ideas. I have a friend who was an editor who helps me. I use my resources. I don't have to know it all, I just have to know how to USE it.
And, again FWIW, your original post is remarkably clean grammar-wise, so...I am optimistic for your chances of future success. Good luck!
Hey, I'm at work. At home Firefox catches my spelling, as does Word. Explorer doesn't help me with that.
Posts: 657 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
We're in the same boat...although you're slightly better off than I am...my GPA's actually quite low. My ACT score is a 32 though, for what it's worth.
My 8th grade English teacher actually told us that unless we were an English teacher or an editor we wouldn't have to remember any of what she taught us for more than a year. As far as I've been able to tell, she's right. I'm terrible at determining direct objects; I'm sure I use them, but I couldn't pick them out for you.
Lots of what I've learned I'll never have to use...but it's nifty to know that the plastic thing on the edge of your shoelace is called an aglet.
posted
Your english teacher was wrong. If you are determined not to learn grammar and spelling in school, you will have to on "your own dime". Spell check is a wonderful tool - as long as you realize that it only picks up mispelled words, not words spelled correctly but are the wrong word. Example: I am going two school. I am going too school. I am going to school. As far as spellcheck is concerned, they are all correct.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Well, I usually did well in English comp., with one exception where I alienated the teacher by insulting her. (Then again, she shouldn't have said that about science fiction.) English lit. was more of a mixed bag...if I found the course, or the book, interesting, I did better...if not, I did worse.
My main problem was I didn't think either were that important. English lit. was loaded with stuff I didn't want to read and didn't find interesting. And English comp., well, it seemed I already knew everything here and didn't need it. I think I could have gotten more out of both if I had paid attention.
Oh, yeah, don't rely on spell checking to do your proofreading. "palmon"'s example is good. Also it'll tell you various science-fictiony words are misspelled. And it tells me my own name is misspelled---who am I going to believe, me or a dumb computer?
posted
Here's another deep, dark secret...NOBODY remembers anything from middle-school grammar class, except maybe the parts of speech.
I agree, KayTi...The way to pick up grammar knowledge is not to drill, drill, drill, which is how it's usually "taught" in school. The way to learn that stuff is through practice. Write as much as you can as well as you can and listen to critiques. As you run into grammar problems and learn how to solve them in your own writing, you'll pick up real knowledge about grammar that is useful to you. If you open a grammar book and memorize what gerunds and adverbial phrases are, chances are that knowledge will no longer be in your head this time next year. If you're actually getting your hands dirty playing with language, though, then it will stick.
Still, it's certainly not a bad idea to pick up a decent grammar book somewhere and brush up once in awhile. You certainly need one for reference (or else how are you going to learn how to fix those grammar problems when you do run into them in your own writing?), but it certainly couldn't hurt to review it once in awhile as well.
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I'll point out something that no one else has mentioned... school is only the starting gate for learning. You will be learning, every day, for the rest of your life. After you get out of school, you get to choose what it is you wish to learn (if one does not factor in the requirements of employment). If you aspire to be a good writer, you'll want to learn more about writing. The difference between mediocrity and greatness is in the ability to wield the skill.
School lays the foundation stones for your lifetime of education by teaching you HOW to learn. If you skip any of the basics, you will limit which directions you can grow.
posted
Well, let me once again (twice in one thread) recommend that Purdue website I gave a link to above. It is one of the best places for reviewing grammar. It has interactive handouts, and is written in clear and understandable language. It's from Purdue University which makes it highly credible.
Posts: 1588 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
You must learn grammar to be a good writer. That's just facts, plain and simple. You don't need to have a PhD in it, but you should know the basic parts.
That should not stop you from writing, though, and reading, because there is more to writing than simply grammar, and grammar experts are not the only people who get published. (Heaven forfend! Could you imagine the stuffy claptrap that would be produced?)
As much as it is maligned from time to time, I can not suggest strongly enough that you pick up a copy of Strunk & White.
posted
I'm not sure that I agree, Wolfe_boy. As long as your USEAGE is good, I'm not sure that you need to be that conversant with the names of things. It helps, no doubt, but I question that it's an absolute necessity. Don't take that to mean I don't think it's worth learning. I just think there are writers out there who don't know the names of the parts of speech who still write well. If you grow up speaking and reading correct English, knowing the names of things is icing on the cake.
Edit: Hah. Don't turn that into a general attack on Strunk & White and get us into a big argument.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 25, 2007).]
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Oh, I forgot to say. Read read read. Lots of books along the lines of what you like to write. If you like to write action, read a lot of that. Suspense? Make sure you read as much of that as you can. You can use your library heavily - I know I did in school. Try to always have a book going. Reading, once you've made a commitment to write, is an excellent way to get bathed in the general rules of grammar that will help you internalize it all and become good at using it in your own writing.
Before someone disagrees with me, YES, there are writers who use bad grammar, but let's give the editors a nod and say that the majority of published fiction (heaven help us if I'm wrong!) is mostly grammatically correct. How's that for a hedge? LOL
And Wolfe-boy, hate to disagree with you directly, but I have to say I'm not sure I agree you have to know the basic parts of grammar to be a good writer. I think you have to know how to USE the basic parts, but I'm dubious that you need more than that. <whistling and walking away, since I rarely know the name of the grammatical thing I'm struggling with, though I generally know I'm struggling with it. >
posted
Just tell a good story. A good story is clear and easy to understand. Grammar helps a story be clear and easy to understand. Maybe you could succeed without knowing grammar, if you somehow had a knack for writing clearly and concisely without it--but I wouldn't risk it. Learn the grammar. And get back to writing Posts: 696 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I seem to have gotten a bit of flack for my suggestion, and the whole time, I found myself agreeing with you two ladies. A writer doesn't necessarily need to know the names of grammatical conventions (and I hope I didn't insinuate as much), but a writer does indeed need to know how to use them. As we sit here, I don't know what a gerund is, I can not articulate a proper definition for participle, and most thoughts on tense beyond past present and future simply escape me. I am capable of writing beyond those strick definitional limitations, because I have a grasp of what grammar is and how it applies, and it is this basic knowledge that I was trying to suggest is imperative to have. A writer should at least have a decent idea why the grammar checker in Word has flagged a sentence of his/hers, regardless of whether or not you accept it. A writer should not have a casual attitude towards grammar, thinking that a copy editor will catch most of the issues. Professional copy should be as clean as possible before submission, in my opinion.
And, as a second item, Jeanne, are you for or against my suggestion of Strunk & White? I am quite a bit for it, regardless of its age or inferred relevance. I dislike debating the specifics of grammatical usage with people who display disdain for Strunk & White. While it might be old fashioned, it is most certainly accurate with respect to correct grammatical conventions.
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Oh, I am for Strunk & White and have owned a copy for years.
I do know what a gerund is, so I'm a better writer than you are, rihgt?
Just kidding.
I think that we both read what you said as implying that you had to know the names, etc. I think we are in agreement that it is USING them correctly that counts. When someone told me recently that I was over-using gerunds, it was nice that I know what she meant. But if I hadn't, I could have looked it up. (Unfortunately, I agreed. Blech.)
Edit: I agree that grammar shouldn't be taken lightly. Words and how we use them are our stock in trade. It's important.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 26, 2007).]
posted
Some basic Grammer will probly be needed, personally I despise Grammer (Notice the passion in my voice as I say "despise") and Despise to use it. However, a year ago I took a college course in english and I found it quite interesting. part of this was a good teacher. But even so, now I don;t remember half of what I learned. I'm still using grammer somehwhat. (feel free to critique how inaccurate my grmmaer is here, I imagine it is to some extent, but then I may be wrong, course this is starting to look like a run-on sentence...) One thing that helped me is that I asked a freind of mine, also a college student, to help me to improve my grammer by critique the grammer I use in my emails. And seeing as I was doing my finals this time last year and I seem to actually remeber more than I thought now that I think about it perhaps I do remember a bit and don;t mind it so much. I still most definitely make mistakes and am definitely a little lazy using it, but perhaps I'm/it's not so bad. So that's my seggusation: get a book, Study it, Write a freind, have them critique it. it worked for me. Also Grammer is insane Some of the things I learned last year still confuse me a little. Course part of that;s I;m not sitting and thinking it over.... Anyways, later.
EDIT: application is bad, but I'm pointing out where I went wrong as I reread this. like And should never be at the begining of a sentence. So in short follow my advice. Don't be lazy, critique yourself too.
[This message has been edited by Greenscreen (edited November 26, 2007).]
posted
Ah, wolfe-boy, we are in violent agreement.
Specifically this part of your post:
quote:A writer should not have a casual attitude towards grammar, thinking that a copy editor will catch most of the issues. Professional copy should be as clean as possible before submission, in my opinion.
posted
Oh yes, including my little rant about tenses.
THERE is one of my pet peeves, just because people get it wrong so much in critiquing other people's work. Nothing irritates me more than when someone says someone is using a passive tense when it's actually past progressive.
If you criticize someone else's grammar, make sure of your ground and don't tell them something that is incorrect.
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And I ask people here my tricky questions. I read websites for ideas. I have a friend who was an editor who helps me. I use my resources. I don't have to know it all, I just have to know how to USE it.
