I submit to you that we could do the same with the professional publishing racket.

I suppose everyone that hangs around here has been burned at one time or another by the pro markets. Manuscripts rejected for reasons we don't understand, that in most cases aren't even given. High prices for bad books. Low word rates. Odd submission rules. Copyright restrictions. Editors with obscure and puzzling tastes in the written word. The near impossibility of making a living at the wrting trade. (Come up with more reasons on your own.) It's enough to make all of us unhappy with how things are run.

Now, there's a lot of publishing going on around the Internet, from fan fiction to news sites, and a bunch of things and places in between. I'm sure everybody here also reads a lot of this.

If we turned more to this kind of publishing---if we started, say, posting our work directly online for free and just letting interested readers find it, eventually---eventually!---we could bring the pro markets to their knees. Maybe it's time to chuck the traditional ways of publication for a way that, though it probably won't make us any money.

However when it comes to writing, the difference between reading something badly written and something well written can be the thickness of the book. I drop books that are badly written.

I take your point regarding editors strange foibles regarding manuscript preparation, it is annoying. Yet I am instructed to many things in my day job that seem stupid and pointless yet I do them for money! If I could sell a novel for mega bucks I would prepare it any way they wanted me too.

I remember from other posts you mentioning you had a few rejections recently and perhaps that is coloring your view. We are the spermatozoa, our target is the egg and many of us will fall to the way side. Only a few will succeed. That's not porn it's Darwinism.

Stay optimistic...

Anyway comparing PORN and writing is a leap...

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited March 02, 2008).]

Pornographic magazines, like Playboy, used to be an on outlet for the celbration of the beauty of the human body. Then stag films dragged it down to the depravity of publications like Hustler and others like 'Big Jugs' (blech). Now it is true that many like to be titilated by such images, but what you see on the net amounts to a sexual equalivant of gauking at a car wreck on the side of the highway. Is that the future of writing that you are looking for?

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I suppose everyone that hangs around here has been burned at one time or another by the pro markets. Manuscripts rejected for reasons we don't understand, that in most cases aren't even given. High prices for bad books. Low word rates. Odd submission rules. Copyright restrictions. Editors with obscure and puzzling tastes in the written word. The near impossibility of making a living at the wrting trade. (Come up with more reasons on your own.) It's enough to make all of us unhappy with how things are run

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Sci-Fi.com had a site filled with free short stories, some classic greats and a regular supply of new from many well-known authors. The editor was Ellen Daltow. I read some really good stuff there – all for free. They closed it due to lack of interest and the famous Ellen had to go find a new job.

The are some interesting elements at play in the publishing industry. The authors who sell lots of books become well off and know how to write what people like. However… the people in the chain of decision long before that point certainly are far from ‘well off.’ In fact most of them complain endlessly of how thankless the job is and that they can’t afford a decent car. Why do they do it? Because it’s the job that they like and it makes them happy. But business minded? Mostly not. You probably have to get five layers in before someone with any business sense sees your work. It would be the equivalent of letting the floor employees at Circuit city choose what products the purchasing agent could pick from. It sounds like a decent idea in theory but would ultimately be a disaster. You would have a lot of products that fit the personal tastes of that demographic, namely the type of people who would be working at a dead end job like that. So I agree, some of what gets published and what gets rejected makes little sense.

So how do you get past the guards who wouldn't know a truly marketable product if it fell on their heads. Simple, have something on your resume. That means get published with short stories first. Get five or six out there in the smaller yet recognized markets and then the guards will be afraid to not pass you forward to the next level. Because you’re not just some easily dismissed shmuck, you’re a somewhat known, ‘published’ author.

This approach is, I believe, flawless.

I would bet our own Sara Genge is close to the point that she could get past all the guards and sit down with someone with actual business sense at the biggest publishing houses. The fact that she’s quite beautiful probably wouldn’t hurt her either but still, I would have a snowball in hells chance of doing the same thing because my resume is Blank!

That might be to do with the fact that I haven’t submitted anything in many years. (I don’t handle rejection well, sniff)

Tracy

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So how do you get past the guards who wouldn't know a truly marketable product if it fell on their heads. Simple, have something on your resume. That means get published with short stories first. Get five or six out there in the smaller yet recognized markets and then the guards will be afraid to not pass you forward to the next level. Because you’re not just some easily dismissed shmuck, you’re a somewhat known, ‘published’ author.

This approach is, I believe, flawless.

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It's flawless if you overlook the fact that some people just aren't good at the short story format, and that (so I hear) short story markets are far more competitive than novel markets right now.

My spin on the OP was that that "something on your resume" might be something you've posted on the internet. A podiobook, a made-to-order real-life novel on paper, etc. Maybe you've even gotten some money for it, by donation clicks on your blog. Although I myself used to curl my lip at such 'publishing' methods because they do indeed bypass those quality guards, I'm considering it now as a way of getting credit. Granted, it doesn't give you the stamp of approval from a recognized publishing house, but it does give you hits. If you could show your prospective editor how many downloads you got, or that you already have a rabid fan community, that may be enough to convince them to take the next step with you.

On the Locus spreadsheet JeanneT posted a bit ago, there are a few entries with the note "previously self-published." One in particular that sticks in my mind is The Lace Reader which sold 'reportedly at $2 million at auction.' David Wellington's Monster Island was originally published online, 'with over 100,000 downloads.'

I don't know if the above would necessarily bring the publishing industry to their knees, but it might raise their eyebrows long enough that we can slip in the door.

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That might be to do with the fact that I haven’t submitted anything in many years. (I don’t handle rejection well, sniff)

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There lies the biggest obstacle to success for many, and probably the reason why this post started.
A lot of good stuff has gone to the wayside because of the sorry, but this doesn't fit in the direction that we heading at this moment
Rejection sucks, especially if you are on a lengthy losing streak. Lets face it, the competition is huge. An editor for a minor publication told me she gets 300 submissions a month. They publish a lot of short things on there (alienskin) but that is still at best a 5% acceptance rate.
Hearing 'no' is hard. Maybe its a little easier for us men because we heard it a little more than you woman, if you get my drift. I spend plenty of times picking up the spirits of friends that get a rejection, and I feel like a hypocrit when I get the blues when I get one. Having friends (like ones you can find on this site) helps. Unlike family, they know exactly what you are going through. I have faith in friends writing ability. Letting them know that still have it when they doubt they ever will is just the thing that pulls them through for another day.
So, Robert, Tracy, and everyone else that is worried they are just another forgotten writer of questionable talent, I'm here to say you most likely are not. Just because an editor says your script 'failed to capture their interest' doesn't mean that it isn't interesting. If you feel you write well enough to be in print, than you probably are. Writing isn't supposed to be easy. It's hard and full of disappointments. Rejections are part of the process. Just think of them as 'character building' and work on improving your characters and anything else that may help it sell for the next try.
Remember we are here for you. Its one of the reasons why a place like hatrack exist. A support network for your fellow writer.
Enough of my rambling. Time to get back to my masterpiece.

It all depends on what your aspirations are as a writer. If you want to be successful financially then you have to run it like a small business. If you advertise in the phonebook, the pennysaver, the paper, local mailers and the internet, you have maximized your chance of getting business. However, if you just pull one full-page ad in the Pennysaver you’re going to get limited response because you put all your exposure eggs into one basket. Another way of looking at it is comparing it to art. If you’re an unknown artist and you spend three years on one piece, you will, a) starve, b) probably remain unknown. If you do one piece every two weeks and expose dozens of them to possible clients… well lets just say that Wells Fargo will be far less nervous about giving you a business loan. Not everyone will like every piece and the artist is possibly the least objective about which ones will actually tickle a client’s fancy.

There are tons of short story outlets and literally hundreds of short stories are published every year. It’s a much busier market. Yes, it is obviously competitive, but 90% are not as well equipped as the writers here at Hatrack. These outlets receive a butt load of crap but I don’t believe that any of it comes from writers here. We focus on the finer points that make the difference. There are several published authors floating around this board who can offer sound advice on your writing, not the least of which is KDW herself.

Incidentally, Ray Bradbury is quite open about the fact that in his lifetime he has written thousands of stories that have never seen the light of day. Sometimes an idea that works in your head doesn’t convey onto paper. Can you imagine the loss if Ray had spent years on each idea instead of banging out the passion he felt at that moment.

Pop over to Hatrack Writers in Print and extend its history out. You’ll see what I mean.

PS. Snapper, I just read what you wrote about men being familiar with rejection and fell of my chair laughing.

But I do not consider myself an amateur and don't care to label myself as such so that solution doesn't appeal to me personally.

I just now got a "I'm passing on this" from Fantasy Magazine--on Sunday yet. And on a short story that has consistently gotten high praise from readers. Yes, rejection sucks.

But yesterday an agent asked for a partial. I think that says a lot.

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PS. Snapper, I just read what you wrote about men being familiar with rejection and fell of my chair laughing.

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Well it is about time someone said I wrote something funny on here. It's been two-months of trying!

But for the reading market what sustains it is a desire for a good story, interesting characters, alternate reality, an escape which is meant to take a long time. At least several hours. (I'm talking about mainstream novel-length fiction here) And in this case one novel may satisfy your appetite again and again until you finish the book. So, to most consumers there are more than enough novels on the shelves what they want is some kind of guarantee that what they pick up is better than the next book on the shelf. Professional publication, as a difficult process, is meant to (theoretically) cut down the volume of garbage and help streamline the process for people to find quality reading. A mass online publication of even more material may thrill a few, but most people will still stick to the professionals, and the recommendations of their friends, family, and of course the new york times.

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I have heard some one this board, say that shorts are harder to write. I guess someone will have to explain that to me because I don’t get it.

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(1) My use of the collapse of the porn industry is an example as a business model.

(2) I think our industry is headed for a mass extinction like the dinosaurs---books and magazines will continue to be published, but the number will shrink.

(3) Near as I can figure, the top rates the major markets pay, when adjusted for inflation, are lower than the top rates paid fifty or sixty years ago---and everything is downhill from there.

In terms of cyber markets outstripping or putting pressure on hardcopy publishers...it's probably going to happen sooner or later. After all, e-publishing is FAR cheaper than printing books. Even books made from recycled, partially synthetic paper.

Eventually, the internet will be portable enough through expanding wireless technology to carry around a 'pad' of some kind. A slim, compact device that acts as a sort of universal book and computer rolled into one. The technology might even advance to the point that wearable computers or ocular displays prevail over tablet PCs.

Software and display technology will eventually be able to mimic the visual look of a printed page, so as to remove eye fatigue from the equation (if it's not already here...and by 'here' I mean in Japan).

Hmmm...methinks there's a story concept here, Robert. Publishers start targeting e-publishers for cutting their roots. You could do something with that.

Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

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Eventually, the internet will be portable enough through expanding wireless technology to carry around a 'pad' of some kind. A slim, compact device that acts as a sort of universal book and computer rolled into one. The technology might even advance to the point that wearable computers or ocular displays prevail over tablet PCs.

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And the copyright enforcement (as with music) will be draconian.

Epublishing doesn't mean the end of publishing. It means publishing using a new technology.

Somewhere some of us got the idea that all epublishing was free. This is a mistaken impression.

Thing is...the major publishing houses that don't already have online divisions WILL, eventually. I guarantee it. They're not likely to let a new, more easily manipulated market pass them by.

Not a chance.

So, basically it will come down to huge publishers going online yet still cornering the print market vs. smaller e-publishers who have been established for a longer time and hold the respect that the print publishers once had in non-electronic markets.

Robert -

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(2) I think our industry is headed for a mass extinction like the dinosaurs---books and magazines will continue to be published, but the number will shrink.

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Your manifesto is interesting - but the thing that's lacking in internet postings (of anything) is it's too easy - except for the rare, totally disciplined and self-driven individual, we need someone(s) there to say - "No, that doesn't cut it" to inspire us to try harder. A lion to help us run faster.

It did have its basis in professional work---a TV show---but I can see ahead to the days when that will be dispensed with.

My goal for lo! these many years was to get my first story published in a professional market, and to be paid for it. The constant rejection, and the need to consume my limited supply of energy brought on by making a living, have driven me away from that. My desire to "have a little fun with my unpaid writing" drove me toward fan fiction.

What little I've had published was in places like Workshop, for instance, or my union local newspaper, letters for letter columns, a couple pieces of poetry here and there...and Internet Fan Fiction.