posted
have you ever noticed that a lot more of the fantasy genres (HP, Eragon, Twilight) have been off on their own tangents? call me old fashioned, but I prefered when you had straight up mythology to go by. no thirteen different versions of a minotaur, just the one killed by theseus. (or Jason, I never can remember which.)
does anyone else even agree with me? or am I just putting hot air out of my ears?
posted
An interesting trick that(blowing hot air out your ears.).
Have I noticed this trend, yes. They don't use Greek mythological creatures anymore. As for going on their own tangents, I think they all copy JRR Tolkien. Very dull.
You want to see fantasy based on its own original worlds? Try the Japaneese.
I appreciate them all. (Tolkien, Greek, Norse, originals.)
posted
There have been some works that deviated from the northern / Germanic / British mythological field Tolkien created---but the Tolkien clones tended to sell better (overall). (At least as far as publishing in America goes.)
There are others out there. Take Orson Scott Card's "Alvin Maker" series---an alternate America, plus a working form of magic, and a sense that the narrative is going somewhere---what more could one want?
I've cast about for something fantastic but non-Tolkien to write in, but with little luck---I enjoy Tolkien but don't want to do a blatant ripoff of his work. I've hit on a few ideas but done little in development and writing.
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Thomas Burnett Swann's works were grounded in mythology. Greek and others. He did a marvelous job with ancient Crete especially. I'm certain there must be someone who did ancient Egyptian well, but I can't think of one, just historical novels. As for Chinese...I saw/read some wild fantasies when I was living in Taiwan but they were either tv shows (Taiwanese operas) or not the sort of books that gets translated.
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posted
I thought Jane Linskold did a great job with BURIED PYRAMID when it comes to Egyptian mythology.
Because of all the ones based on previous works is why my untitled novella is loosely based on Native American beliefs. I feel this is a field that hasn't been touched on much among fantasy writers. OOPS! I guess there has been one, and it's been already mentioned in this thread... The Alvin Maker series, which just happens to be the first works I read by Orson Scott Card and eventually led me to Hatrack .
posted
I don't mind if the authors draw on and reinterpret mythology. When it comes to some, like vampires or werewolves, there are so many mythologies out there anyway. How can you say one is the "right" one?
On the other hand, I like deviations to be meaningful. Like Edward in Twilight being all sparkly in the sun--that was kind of ridiculous to me. However, I don't mind reinterpretation. This is what historical fiction does, after all, and Mary Renault's series about Theseus was absolutely brilliant even though she strayed in that she gave logical explanations for mythic events.
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There are countless non-Tolkeinian fantasy settings if you want to stay away from that approach, even if you don't want to come up with something completely your own (for example I write, and sell, Chinese-flavoured fantasy; I know a couple of authors who do well with meso-American fantasy).
However, there's always a fine line to be walked. Readers want both a certain level of newness and a certain level of familiarity (this applies to most genres - it's why there ARE genres). So while you can succeed with something utterly unlike anything anyone has read before, you can equally succeed by taking stuff someone has done before an dgiving it a wist of your own. And you can succeed, sometimes, by doing nothing original whatsoever beyond mixing and matching and retreading existing stories.
posted
hey, I wouldnt have noticed the trend if not for twilight. and I really dont mind minor deviations, its just when someone warp a conventional thing into something completely unrecognizable. their are certain kinds that work (tolkeins elves, for instance.) but then there are some that dont. (too many to mention)
but the thing is, Im working on a graphic novel right now (comic book to those in novelland) that is steeped in mythology from all over the world, and Im looking for an author who tried that, but all I got was... well, a lot of regional stuff, but not much on the worldwide stuff. (mythology books help, but I cant figure out how to fit it all together.)
posted
Hey, dreadlord, what about Hellboy as a model? I've read that the comics and animated series take from American, Western European, Middle Eastern, Eastern European, Asian, and African mythologies.
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posted
You can always dig up some non-Tolkien heroic fantasy. (The aforementioned Thomas Burnett Swann is one of my favorite writers.) And a sophisticated reader (or a would-be writer) should be able to handle any cultural variations as a matter of course.
But there's a lot of thought in the publishing end of the field, that these works are intended to appeal to adolescent readers, who might be bright but wouldn't necessarily have the experience and knowledge to enjoy and appreciate (and spend their cash on) something too far from the familiar.
*****
I think I'll throw one of my ideas out there, since I doubt if I'm going to do anything with it.
I got to thinking of the story of Rip Van Winkle---you remember, the guy who interfered with a bunch of kobolds throwing ninepins and slept twenty years, through the American Revolution. (I may be misremembering it some here.)
Seemed to me that the mythology of the story was transplanted European, rather than, say, Indian / native American / whatever. It got me to wondering---how and why would European supernatural spirits make it to the New World and what effect would these have on the events of, say, the American Revolution itself?
Now, before I got to the point of having characters and a plot, I got intimidated by the amount of research into the period I would have to do, and gave it up.
posted
European fantasy elements made it over here in several children's book series. One I distinctly recall was based in Appalachia. I believe one was THE WATCHERS by Jane Louise Curry.
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The dragon evolved from Chinese mythology. I have done no research to back up this statement, but I'd bet the Chinese dragon pre-dates any similar creature in Greek mythology.
As cultures come into contact with each other, the myths become conjoined. I see the modern elements of fantasy as a natural evolution. Ultimately, in my opinion, what's important is whether the tale is worth reading or not.
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There are "dragons" in most world myths and it seems to be in common cultural currency, so I'm not sure it's legitimate to assume it came from the Chinese in particular. Part of the reason, though, that they appear so widely is that translators have used the term for things that aren't necessarily that similar - the Chinese dragon is very different from creatures equally called dragons in other myths.
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posted
One of the reason Stephanie Meyers was able to "reinvent" the vampire is she wasn't steeped in the lore before hand. So in some ways she wasn't writing what she knew and that freed her to do have different explanations for the cultural mythos out there about vampires.
We all base our writing off something. Whether its taking elements of the minotaur story and using the idea behind it and the story line to make something newer, pulling different cultural icons together in a new way, or using the collective unconcious all of our ideas come from somewhere.
I'm collaborating on a story (well, outline right now) that is going to pull in a bunch of different mythologies/lores. I have another WIP that takes the Central American "feathered serpent" legends, mixes that with the Indian Nagas and adds something new. Like Elan says, what matters is whether the tale is worth telling which means can the disparate legends be convincingly worked together.
There are some legends that have become culturally significant on a global basis or part of the collective unconcious: dragons, elves, vampires, weres, and such. The hard part of writing about them is that you do have to bring something new to the tale otherwise it is derivative.
quote:The dragon evolved from Chinese mythology. I have done no research to back up this statement,
Ay, ay, ay.
Well, let me suggest to you that if you bother to look into the matter you've just stated your flat opinion on, you're going to find that dragons go WAY back in many cultures other than the Chinese.
There is actually a book in the bible called "Bel and The Dragon". Were you aware of that? Check out a description of the Midgard Serpent. Or who Sigurd slayed. Nidhog, Níðhöggr etc.
Greek myth bristles with dragons.
Chronilogically, it's probable that Hindu myth dragons like Vidra predated the Chinese.
But that's beside the point. You can't say, "There's an earlier record of dragons in culture A than Culture B so the latter devolved from the former."
It's the kind of idea that crops up throughout humanity and is about as archetypal as things get.
My guess would be that YOU were first impressed by Chinese dragons, and therefore assume they were the prime factor. It's easy to mistake one's own perceptions for universal reality if you don't check with others.
[This message has been edited by LintonRobinson (edited December 02, 2008).]
[This message has been edited by LintonRobinson (edited December 02, 2008).]
posted
Isn't a better way to look at this is that there are certain archetypes or conventions that we can utilize as tools in the writing? I would like to think that just because a story contains dragons doesn't mean it's automatically the same as all the other stories.
I think the TV series Stargate SG-1 was a good example of this. While the majority of stories and plotlines were original, there were several episodes that were stories similar to other concepts (black hole, asteroid approaching earth, alien race with a foothold in base, etc.). What was original was how the story was told, the different ways in which the characters dealt with it, and the characters involved.
It does seem to me that the original poster's rule #1 isn't as strict as is perceived sometimes.
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I saw a statement that said that a dragon had to be something more than an acid spitting lizard.
Unlike Elves and Dwarves, Dragons are one of those fantasy creatures that one can have fun in designing.
One can have winged and wingless, four legged with separate wings, bat winged style, flaming, spitting and I have even seen flameless. Some have the hydra as a dragon, others have it as something else. I wrote an unpublishable piece about where dragons descended from Pteridactals and explained how the "fire" developed through evolution.
Being able to play with the nature of dragons, I also wrote a story where the fire (images of flames, the sensation of heat and pain) was in the minds of the victims, not physical.
When working with dragons, one can be quite free to play because they are not yet pidgeon holed into a specific form.
posted
thanks for the Hellboy idea. really helped out.
you know, I think that this is one of the best discussions I started. great ideas, everyone.
hmmm... retell the Minotaur... good idea!
anyway, Ive got a good start on my story. if you want to interview the MC, then go to Character Interviews. I really dont think we utilize that enough.
just the actor in me speaking there. thinking like the character helps me to write about the character.
posted
For those of you researching dragons through history or across cultures, keep in mind that the name dragon is sometimes used in place of drake, worm/wyrm (serpent), and other non-modern terms.
Also, the myth of La Gargouille may have inspired creation of early gargoyles and grotesques. (I'm adding this because I'm writing a short story about a gargoyle/grotesque and would enjoy a reference to La Gargouille in someone else's story, as it won't fit in mine.)
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