posted
Jeff Vandermeer blogged about beginning his novel Finch, and welcomes some discussion. What's your take?
Posts: 3687 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I read the author's excerpts of Finch. It reads like a screenplay, and is full of those choppy sentences, and page after page of dialog that I [me not speaking for anyone else] dislike so.
It begins with a prologue. I thought this was a no no!
Is "that'd" a word? Can you have a contraction when the apostrophe is forced between two hard consonants? Doesn't sound right to me.
I know, Whoop-ty-do! what I think, he's published!
Jeez, can I ever break into this market?
At least I don't have to waste my money on this drivel.
Thanx, Babbler, for bringing this to my attention. I learn as much from what I dislike as from what I do like.
posted
VanderMeer thinly disguises a promotional effort as a writing discussion. The first response is noteworthy as one train of thought process for determining where a story should best open.
The novel's transcript prelude's clumsiness tells me that homework wasn't thorough. A simple question or two of a transcriptionist would have done wonders to overcome its clumsy aspects. "Prelude: an introductory performance, action, or event preceding and preparing for the principal or a more important matter" Webster's 11th. I don't see the prelude connecting timely with the main opening.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited January 05, 2010).]
posted
Edward - not sure where you got the idea a prologue was a no-no. Though his "prologue" is more a brief flashforward than a traditional prologue (which, in effect, he gives as his option 4 and then dismisses).
I rather like the style. Vandermeer is pretty much centred in the "New Weird" and I'm not sure it's really my thing (what little I;ve read has generallyhad flashy ideas but not much of a real story), but I think he does a good job of conveying the strangeness, in particular all the fungal stuff.
My comment was a cynical one, but now that you mention it, the first definition of a prologue is "an introduction to a play" and since I stated that Finch reads like a screenplay, I feel my comment was appropriate. I never said _you_ couldn't like it.
"New weird," as opposed to what? "Old weird."
Kathy's comment is spot on.
P.S., Definitions aside, what, pray tell, is a "traditional prologue?"
posted
A traditional prologue as I know it is a narrator's introductory direct address to readers/an audience. The opening of Charles Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities is an example of a prologue. "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times. . . ." James Alan Gardner's "The Ray-Gun: A Love Story" (Asimov's February 2008) opens with a prelude in the story's narrative voice.
A basic distinction between a prologue and a prelude, a prologue is in a narrator's direct address to an audience that pierces the fourth wall. A prelude is in a story's narrative voice directed within the story's frame.
Other front matter for novels include foreword, preface, and introduction composed by an author or editor or a guest commentator. None of which are commonplace with short stories, they're not uncommon in short story anthologies though.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited January 05, 2010).]
posted
Edward, I think you really need to get that chip on your shoulder seen to. You tell me earlier "I never said you couldn't like it" - well, I don't remember telling you that you had to like it, either. But your sneering dismissal comes across as way more than mere "dislike".
You know, there are a lot of writers whose work I don't care for. Some of them are the best-selling writers in America today (writers like King, Grisham, Brown, Rowling, Meyer - I've not enjoyed anything I've read by any of these people, though in most cases I haven't read very much of their output). But they obviously write stuff that other people like (and almost certainly not for the same readership as Jeff Vandermeer). There's a very broad church out there, and room for a whole variety. You seem to take the success of any writer whose style you dislike as some kind of personal affront, and I don't think that's a healthy attitude.
And your implication that he has only been successful because of his wife's editorship of Weird Tales is, I suspect, a touch off the mark, to put it mildly (they married in 2003, by which time he'd already published a few books, and she didn't get the Weird Tales job until at least 2007).
Oh, and <i>pace> extrinsic's definitions, by "traditional" prologue I meant the tendency for epic fantasy novels to have an opening chapter (usually titled as "prologue") which introduces backstory/world-building, usually to let you know where the particular Dark Lord of this story got his start
[This message has been edited by tchernabyelo (edited January 06, 2010).]
posted
I read the excerpt, some parts several times. I can see how fans might be able to follow the story, but with a panoply of spinning tangents I couldn't follow the story without great efforts. VanderMeer's previously published books were under TOR and Baen's imprints. This one Underland Press, a recent small press start up.
This one has the symptoms of a sophomore slump and limited editorial oversight. "That'd" is one symptom, clumsy transcript prelude, the spinning tangents without settling on an empathy/sympathy worthy center, the frequent sentence fragments, Finch's introspective whining. Fans familiar with the Ambergris saga are already there in alignment. Newcomers aren't. Purported to be a standalone novel, for fans, yes. Not for me. The start is too slow from a dearth of meaning space alignment complicated by rhetorical vices.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited January 06, 2010).]
posted
Wow, I thought people were exagerating, until I went and read some of the novel from the provided PDF.
Finch, at the apartment door, breathing heavy from five flights of stairs, taken fast.
Why do this? What is the point? Why not something like this?
Finch stood hunched over at the apartment door, breathing heavy from sprinting up five flights of stairs.
At least it is a damn sentence, lol.
The next two sentences are just so dang weird.
The message that’d brought him from the station was already dying in his hand. Red smear on a limp circle of green fungal paper that had minutes before squirmed clammy.
I've read it over and over, and I still don't really get it. The last part makes little sense to me. This could have been easily fixed if he just wrote sentences and dropped "squirmed clammy," because that makes no sense when applied to a piece of paper.
At first, I thought, maybe he will start writing sentences. Wrong. The book is written as if Rorshack from The Watchers wrote it.
Not for everyone, I guess. Maybe so. Maybe not. Might like it if you dig that sort of thing, though. Then again, maybe not. Quiet in here. Fan is puttering out. Need a new one. Store is too far away. First need money and job to get money.
quote: ...because that makes no sense when applied to a piece of paper.
You got it. It's not a regular piece of paper; it's a "circle of green fungal paper"--indicating it was alive (thus why it's dying), AND showing us this is speculative fiction.
I'm not defending his clipped style, but this sentence, to me, makes sense.
quote:This one has the symptoms of a sophomore slump and limited editorial oversight. "That'd" is one symptom, clumsy transcript prelude,
Seriously? You have that much of a problem with "that'd" (which I hear regularly in normal speech). Do you have the same problem with "that'll"? As in "That'll be the day-ay-ay that I die"? This seems more a nit to me.
Again, not defending his clipped style, but I have no problem with this--just thought it'd be worth mentioning.
posted
I have no personal issue with "that'd". I do have a professional issue with it.
In its introspective usage, it does reflect speech. It does, however, cause a speed bump when I read it for having to take the time to decipher from the context whether it means that would or that had or that did or that should or that could.
posted
I find, with that conjunction, that it doesn't much matter whether the latter part is "would" or "should" (they are interchangable in the uses that would be applicable), but I've never seen or heard it as "that-could"--and concede that that'd be distracting. But, it was "that had"...and I thought it was pretty clear.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 16, 2010).]
posted
The possible meanings for "That'd" cause what I know as a category violation. Contracting the words causes the confusion, not for everyone, sufficiently that as an editor I would remark on it, but not suggest a revision in some cases.
For further illustration of category violations, not as criticism, because there's no final consensus on much in creative writing.
quote:"I'm not defending his clipped style, but this sentence, to me, makes sense." . . . And . . . "Again, not defending his clipped style, but I have no problem with this--just thought it'd be worth mentioning."
Of course, upon reflection, the this pronoun in both sentences refer to antecedent subjects. Confusion arises over whether following subjects are instead referred to. ". . . but I have no problem with this--just thought it'd be worth mentioning." That sentence's logic says that "I" have no problem with this[as follows]--just thought it'd be worth mentioning. The dash does say there's an interruption of the train of thought. However, this's reference to an antecedent raises a pronoun "antichrony." That is a widely accepted pronoun for referencing singular and nonnumbered antecedents.
There are no similar issues with that'll. Either that will or that shall, shall and will have parallel meanings but different registers.
Yet, category violations of all kinds are commonplace throughout literature. Pronoun antecedent/subsequent agreement conflict with subject/object usage of this and that are widespread in fantastical genres. It's an integral part of some writers' voices.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited January 16, 2010).]
posted
"That'd" is very much a part of the narrative "voice", which is in 3rd Person Limited (in turn in Finch's voice). It maybe that your nit actually traces back to the "phonetics" discussions.
Where'd; That'd; What'd aren't any more violations in context than "chicken" is. Does Chicken mean afraid? coward? food? the bird?
posted
I can't swear by that. You do seem to have some major Nits. But, keep you hat to yourself, just in case--and I'll do the same.
Posts: 3687 | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of them many objectionable terms that appear here and there in writing discussions, nit is one I find especially offensive. Using it dismisses my profession as an unclean activity.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
Are you a "professional" writer? Is this (offense at the term "nit") a wide-held insult among "professionals"?
I'm in contact with several (bestselling professionals) on a fairly-regular basis, and the topic never arose. So, I'm not going to apologize for using a term that is commonly used at Hatrack (more commonly in Fragments & Feedback), or even say that I understand what real offense you can possibly derive.
However, trust me when I tell you, I have a plethora of insults at hand (should I so choose to fling them about), and very little care to withhold them if I feel they're warranted.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 16, 2010).]
posted
Okay, yeah, right. The term "nit picking" comes from what people have to do for others when they do have lice.
I apologize for encouraging the term, even though it is a METAPHOR, people, and not an extended one at that.
It's one thing to be offensive (and I will do what I can to stop that as quickly as I can), but it can be just as bad, in its own way, to be easily offended, especially when no offense is intended.
posted
I found the clipped style to be very awkward, at first. I kind of got used to it after about a chapter and a half. After I got used to it I found it to be an interesting aspect of the voice. After reading the comments above, it seems that this is a book in an established series, so others would already be used to this style. I'm not sure if I could take an entire novel of it. I don't think I will be finding out anytime soon as I don't plan on buying any of his stuff. What I did find annoying was the lack of information about the other beings in the room. How would a human have a beard of fungus? That sounds really unhealthy. But, as was said (somewhere, his website I think) this is his weirdest book yet. And it sure was weird.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
