I'm currently dealing with a magic system where one of the schools of magic is simply heat (And the taking away of heat).
Because these people would be dealing with heat and fire so often, I feel it quite obvious that they'd also devise bombs, and use steam power to their own benefit. Thusly, my problem begins. I know fairly little about combustibles and steam power, and I've no idea where to begin.
Are any of you familiar with this field, and could possibly point me in the right direction, or answer a few questions? It would be greatly appreciated. Preferably something written for people that aren't already in the field.
I'm also interested in the effects of cold on various objects, and what forces (if any) can be created through the use of flash-freezing, or intense cold.
I know I could search google, but I mostly find articles written for people in the field (Who already know all of the terminology). I figured I'd ask you all if you had any good resources to share.
posted
Not an expert at all here, but the main hurdle you're going to run into with steam power in a medieval setting is where do they get the materials and engineering to make a vessel that can contain the pressure? Heat was not in short supply in the middle ages (they were, after all, melting iron and forging steel on a regular basis).
You could get around this a little bit by having them use aeolipiles, since they don't really pressurize the steam, but keep in mind that will also reduce the power of your steam engines (they won't have anywhere near the torque, so be mindful of what job you have them used for). 'Course, you could also just have them use primitive boilers that are more prone to explode than doing work (Hey! There's your bomb right there!)
For cold, for some reason I keep turning to super conductors, but I have no idea what use they could possibly be in your world You could have them take advantage of the fact that water expands when frozen and have them use that to split open all kinds of things (for instance, quarrying, or escaping from a prison)
I probably should've mentioned: The steam power wouldn't be anything advanced (I'm not talking trains or steamships or anything of that sort). It would be very simple things.
posted
Steam power for "very simple things" was developed in post-Classical Greek times. Go google-searching for Heron of Alexandria. All the necessary technology actually existed around that time for the construction of simple steam trains, but even had someone put all the bits and pieces together it would have been on an artisan/craftsman model not an industrial model so they would have been one-off curiosities.
I am not sure about your "explosives" question - explosives are just very fast chemical reactions, they are based on the properties of chemicals and are not really to do with heat per se. If you don't have the chemistry, you don't have the explosion (although fine combustible dust is actually a decent substitute for a Fuel-Air Explosive and under the right conditions mills etc could explode spectacularly - see the end of Tim Burton's "Sleepy Hollow", in which the explosion actually IS plausible in context).
posted
As for bombs they could easily fill a sealed container even porcelain with water or possibly even oil, and heat them up until the fluids inside bercomes a gas strong enough to burst the container. stronger the container the bigger bang.
I have also seen where they did something like that with a water filled container, but froze it instead. The ice shattered an inch thick cast iron contaner, sending chunks into a wall.
posted
It's not the heat or the cold per se, but the change that often provides the explosive power. You can also investigate the coefficient of expansion between materials. Materials shrink and expand at differing rates. The idea of expansion and contraction can be used if the magic is very specific. If you can get mortar to shrink at a faster rate than the brick that's it's holding up, you could conceivably collapse an arch, for example.
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posted
There is a lot of potential in the idea. Can a trained person focus the heat at any physical location, or does it need some means of getting to the location as in our world? If you can focus it anywhere, then a ball of ice becomes a potent bomb. Rapidly heat up the center of the ice, such it melts from the inside out and you get a bubble of superheated water in the middle. When it reaches some sand mixed in with the ice (e.g. about 2/3 the way to the center), the sand nucleates (starts) the water turning to steam, explosively, sending chunks of ice in all directions (or in specific directions if shape charging). Alternatively, explosions can also be caused by igniting dust (it burns rapidly due to the large surface area).
Another possibility is to heat one end of some metal, and cool the other, and you get an electric current running between the two ends. Some shock therapy for armored assailants.
Then there is the flying asbestos carpet. Bad on the lungs, but could get you out of a few tight places.
posted
Don't know how I missed this, but you could have them construct the equivalent of a nuclear reactor with this.
Have them build a tower that tapers towards the top with a constant supply of water at the bottom, which they flash into steam, as the steam rises, the tapered shape pressurizes it by the time it hits fan blades, which will then spin and can be hooked up to whatever device you want. Imagine all those middle ages waterwheels replaced by cooling towers, and you get the idea.
posted
Thanks everybody, these have been awesome suggestions. Forgive me for implying that heat would force make them learn how to use explosions. I more meant the pressure they could learn to harness through temperature manipulation, but I also see the flaw in that logic, as they'd still need the technology to contain such pressures. I'm terrible at translating my thoughts unless I have a thirty page outline; especially if I know nothing of the subject... Haha.
One of my major inspirations for the steam based bombs was stories of the old boilers that blew up. I thought it'd be an intriguing idea in a fantasy world.
Brendan -- The Iceball bomb is very intriguing. How large would one of these balls need to be to create a psuedo hand grenade?
As for the energy tower, something like that could certainly be used in the major areas. I'll have to look at some of this.
Another question: Could natural caverns, or pockets of water under the earth be used to create anything useful (or destructive) via the use of temperature manipulation?
Thanks a bunch guys. I apologize for my ignorance, haha.
posted
if you are writing fantasy I am assuming you are referring to the technology in the late middle ages say around 1400? That is what most fantasy authors use.
The byzantines had "greek fire" (look it up on wikipedia). Its basically an early for of napalm. Water did not put it out. They used it to wipe out several navies when they were attacked. This was much earlier than 1400.
by 1450 the turks were using early cannon to take down Constantinoples walls, but I am not sure if that is really considered the middle ages.
posted
Cannon were actually being used somewhat earlier than that. The oldest surviving gun dates to 1288 and even hand cannons were in use in the 14th century (1300s). This is normally regarded as the later or high Middle Ages.
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posted
If one could apply heat to an underground source, one might be able to get it to develop pressure, work its way up through cracks and cause geysers to go off inside a fortress to really mess things up in there. It might also be a way to get emergency source of water to the surface. One could also locate the underground water source of a fortress and freeze it, preventing access to the water, ending a siege.
The earliest cannons were from tree trunks bored out. Mythbusters built one and it fired a ball quite a ways. Early plumbing was hollowed out logs. Consider a water tank for a village where the water is lifted into the tank with steam, possibly an underground source. The water goes up into the tank, and then one can use log pipes buried in trenches to go to each home.
Technology possible for your world need not exactly copy our technologies. The big reason they did not industrialize early in history, was that labor was cheep. It was the plagues of the 1300s that devastated the population of Europe and set the stage for the start of industrialization.
If you can invent a reason something exists, you can do it.
As to the size of the ice grenade, it does not need to be big at all. I think the experiment I had seen was hand held. It was the thick material to allow the pressure to develop, was why it worked. Of course with any grenade, grooves in the surface allows it to break up in many pieces. I am not sure how effective it actually would be as a weapon.
OH, I just remembered something. During World war two, they experimented with ships made of ice. The ice was impervious to the existing shells, it could be repaired easily and cheep to make. The war ended before they were put into use. Your characters come to a river or lake and need to cross. sweeping their hands over the water, they cause it to freeze. they pull it out along the bank till it is big enough, then they start building up the ice up the sides, pouring water along the edges. In a cuuple hours, they have a very large boat made of ice. they load it up and row to their destination. They don't want their passage known, so when they have the boat unloaded, they apply heat to it, melting the bottom so the boat sinks. and they leave. The ones searching for them see a little bit of ice in the warm lake and have no idea how it formed. They cannot find their prey.
Also, consider forming ice into something like a wagon, and using that to transport water to their village or fortress. Not having to deal with buckets, they move ice around.
Let us know if we are coming up with something even close to the mark and we can come up with more.
quote:OH, I just remembered something. During World war two, they experimented with ships made of ice. The ice was impervious to the existing shells, it could be repaired easily and cheep to make.
Actually, they were ships made out of pykrete, which is a slurry of sawdust and water. So, it's not quite as simple as going down to the lake and freezing up an aircraft carrier.
[This message has been edited by JSchuler (edited July 29, 2010).]
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You could have them take advantage of the fact that water expands when frozen and have them use that to split open all kinds of things (for instance, quarrying, or escaping from a prison)
