posted
I know you shouldn't put too much stock in your work; your work does not define you. But dang it hurts when you pour your soul into a protagonist only to have your critique group say "He's kinda cliche".
posted
I wouldn't let it hit you too hard. Sometimes when people judge a character as "cliche", what they're really saying is that the characterization could use more depth. More backstory, more history, perhaps more complex motivations for what he does, or at least more deep-seated ones.
Even surly loner old warriors with scarred pasts and hearts of gold can be presented without making them a cliche .
posted
So maybe your character isn't cliche. Maybe you just didn't quite get his uniqueness across. It might be a communication problem.
Ask yourself how your character is different and look in your text for how you've demonstrated that. If it's not there, add it. And if you haven't really made him different, then do it now.
Ask not only what motivates your character but also what things he doesn't like, and why. Also figure out what he's truly afraid of. You may not have a place for it in your text, but it will clarify his motivations. What does he stand for and why?
But two things. One is did they really mean "kinda" as in a little bit or did they use the word in the wider sense as meaning very cliche?
Two, I think Nate and genevive have already said some good things. Maybe ask your group, if they haven't said already, how he is a cliche. Could just need a little tweaking here and there.
Of course there's a chance it needs a lot of tweaking but you can do that too.
posted
I don't think that your hero being a cliché such a fatal problem in an early draft. If you look at most stories, the hero fits some kind of trope: the reluctant hero, the overeager farmboy (I mean *you* Luke Skywalker), the fish out of water, the leader of a band of misfits, the hotshot who needs to learn humility.
What your critics are saying doesn't mean that your protag is a total loss, or a loss at all. It means he's unfinished. What a critique of an early draft does is tell you where to focus your efforts. What it sounds like to me is that you've done the work of figuring out the archetypal characteristics the hero needs for the story, but you have more work to do in imagining him as a credible sounding individual.
Does he have quirks that are believable, but not everyone has? For example does he have a habit of saying things he should have kept to himself? Does he put four teaspoons of sugar in his coffee? Does he have mannerisms or ways of speaking that serve as a kind of motif (elementary, my dear Watson...).
Most importantly, is he shown doing things that are comprehensible from which the *reader* puts him in the appropriate trope category, or do ou just *tell* the reader what to think about him?
For example, suppose your hero is a hotshot who needs to learn humility. You could have another character say, "Gee that Captain Jones is a hotshot who needs to be taken down a notch." OR you could use the formulaic action-packed opening scene to show he's a hotshot, then have him walk off trampling the feelings of the lesser team members who contributed to his success. Right there you have a story. Readers will understand that this guy is hero material, but he' got a lesson to learn.
posted
After talking with my critiquer, it seems his primary problem was that he didn't know enough about my protag early on. Granted, he's only read two chapters, but he wasn't sure why he should be pulling for him. Gives me a direction to work on.
quote:Even surly loner old warriors with scarred pasts and hearts of gold can be presented without making them a cliche
Well, I'm going to have to stumble over a few cliches at some point. This is an actin/adventure treasure-hunter story. Kind of hard to have a story like that without hitting a few retreaded ideas. He did like that I spun a few cliches on their heads, though - my "effeminate male antagonist" is really the female love interest in disguise.
quote:Maybe you just didn't quite get his uniqueness across.
Possibly. It's still early on.
quote:What does he stand for and why?
That might be closer to the problem. Chapter 1 starts with him at gunpoint, so not much chance to flesh him out. Chapter 2 starts in a library, so I have more time to flesh this protag out. Might be the right spot for it there.
quote:One is did they really mean "kinda" as in a little bit or did they use the word in the wider sense as meaning very cliche?
I think he was just being polite. He might have meant "unrealized" instead of "cliche".
quote:there's a chance it needs a lot of tweaking
No doubt.
quote:What your critics are saying doesn't mean that your protag is a total loss, or a loss at all. It means he's unfinished.
That's what I think I'll operate on for the immediate time being. First task is just to finish the thing. I probably shouldn't be offering chapters up for critique while still working on the piece, but I didn't have anything else to submit to the group, and we only meet twice a month.
quote:This is an actin/adventure treasure-hunter story. Kind of hard to have a story like that without hitting a few retreaded ideas
The key here is to really let the character's voice and attitude come through. You may need to push it a little more than you think. Also, if you make the audience really care about the character, they won't mind if he's a little cliche. Just don't make him generic. Define him so that you could drop him somewhere completely foreign, like ancient China, and both you and your readers will know how he would react. The flip sode of that should be that if he acts out of character, both you and your readers should recognize it. Note: Don't have him act out of character unless there's a good reason for it, and let us know that reason.
quote:First task is just to finish the thing. I probably shouldn't be offering chapters up for critique while still working on the piece, but I didn't have anything else to submit to the group.
If I might make a suggestion...
I think it might be worth considering addressing the problems identified NOW, before completing an entire rough draft. I understand it's quite a milestone to finish a whole manuscript, but that's miles from having a FINISHED MS.
If it's daunting now to revise some 10K word fragment you've worked so hard on, imagine how much harder a whole 100K world novel would be. The solution to your characterization problems might well require you to redo dozens of scenes and rip out entire subplots that would never have been written if you'd realized what had to be done.
Openings are arguably the hardest part of a novel in any case. There is no one right way to do this, but one possibility is to outline the entire novel but concentrate on getting the first 20% or so into really good shape before shooting or a complete rough draft. This not only reduces the problem of false starts, it makes it easier for critics to give you thorough and substantive feedback if they don't have to read through an an entire abortive 100k word draft.
quote:If it's daunting now to revise some 10K word fragment you've worked so hard on, imagine how much harder a whole 100K world novel would be.
This is a work I started in November (though it sat on a shelf for 4 months). I'm already 93 thousand words in. This wasn't a fragment - it was a complete manuscript at some point. Then I realized my antagonist sucked and had to chuck 60 percent of the story out the window. This is officialy my second time through.
At this point, this draft just needs completion. I can worry about problems like background and history in a while. My character already has a voice and I'm pretty confident he'll stand on his own once the reader knows him.
quote:he'll stand on his own once the reader knows him.
Sorry for pounding on this, but they need to know him right off the bat. You need to get his personality through right away.
Think about the opening sequence of Raiders of the Lost Ark. By the time he's flying off into the sunset, without the idol, we know tons about Indiana Jones. Not the details, like he's a college professor that has left at least one badly broken heart behind, but the kind of person he is. Not only do we know him, we like him. So start showing your MC's personality even when the gun is pointed at his head. And maybe you are. But don't expect a reader to wait a few chapters for you to establish character.
posted
Point taken. I'll have to rework chapter two once I get back around into edit mode again. The library scene should offer enough of a slow-down to flesh him out.
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posted
All protagonists are cliche. All stories are reworkings of the same one story told by men and women and children around cavefires to ward off fear, dark, and death.
Hero, Warrior, Maiden, Crone, Child, Wiseman, Fool, Trickster, Smith, Gardener,...and all the remaining archetypes.
All stories are merely quests, the bests for self-discovery.
I agree with the Preacher of Scripture: "That which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is nothing new under the sun. "
The true artist is one who can combine these same old paints and make them seem new. The most skillful chef can do the same with leftovers.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
[This message has been edited by History (edited July 08, 2011).]
posted
Remember another trick of the novelist (compared to the screenwriter) is the inner monologue. I was just explaining this to my kids when they were struggling with a writing task, trying to figure out how many details to add and where. You can use the character's ability to "think out loud" and of course beats to deliver bits about a character that help solidify them in the reader's mind.
And also it bears mentioning, don't give too much weight to one person's critique, unless he's voicing thoughts that have been silently bugging you for a while.
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This wasn't a fragment - it was a complete manuscript at some point. Then I realized my antagonist sucked and had to chuck 60 percent of the story out the window. This is officialy my second time through.
