posted
So I'm writing an ongoing series of short stories, that I release for free (Aiyela the Space Gypsy) through smashwords--maybe someday they'll show up in an anthology. Very episodic but a continuing arc is emerging.
In the second episode, the MC is reading a book from a made up author that I wanted to be a recurring element. A little easter egg. Anyway, as I imagined the story she's reading, I started to get ideas for the MC (and her boyfriend). So, and I'm not sure this is a question, or thinking out loud:
The original short stories are probably MG close to YA (humorous, vague but dire villainry), but the spin-offs would be YA or adult novels (but hopefully accessible to YA readers). I'm wondering if this would be a problems. Plus, they would obviously be more serious (but still light, though noir).
This all became more relevant since I got a fairly fleshed out story idea pop into my head this morning.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think a few self-imposed rules are in order.
The stories by the made-up author, are they described or cited in their respective stories or just named? Either way, they are what is known as False Documents, fictional texts that do not exist in the real world but do exist in the world of a narrative. If other stories in the franchise are those False Document stories of one or more of other stories, I believe a rule is needed to keep them distinct so readers can track when one is which and when one is another.
I feel that's in and of itself a great idea, only keeping readers informed is crucial in order for it to work (be accessible and appealing).
I don't per se see a problem with noir or dire, dark villainry. Middle grade readers can stand more villainry and dark and dire edgy than adults might believe, if villains are polarized as near purely wicked and if poetic justice prevails. Noir, in a simple definition, is a hardboiled persona's adventures in a bleak setting's milieu. How hardboiled and bleak, dark and villainous might be a matter of a close look at what uniquely terrifies and excites middle graders, but might pass unremarked by the folk who believe they have a duty to guard those of that age from unwarranted terror and deliquency influences.
posted
I could be wrong but isn't there a subseries with the Pern books that was YA? A series about the Master harper?
Posts: 5289 | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
For some reason---probably because they said they're going to open up Kurt Vonnegut's universe on the "authorized fanfic" thing on Amazon-dot-com and Kindle---I'm reminded of the time Philip Jose Farmer wrote a book as Vonnegut's "Kilgore Trout."
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Robert Nowall: For some reason---probably because they said they're going to open up Kurt Vonnegut's universe on the "authorized fanfic" thing on Amazon-dot-com and Kindle---I'm reminded of the time Philip Jose Farmer wrote a book as Vonnegut's "Kilgore Trout."
posted
P.S.S. I've dabbled just a little in this with Erev Tov where the story itself is allegedly from an ancient and rare book of which only 3 copies remain, and the denouement is the short hand-written note that follows the story in one of the three books by a rabbi who investigated the story's origin and discovered more than he expected.
Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
Actually I knew that but I couldn't think of her name. Seems like The Masterhaper got in there somewhere thought even though I might be thinking of the separate book about him.
Posts: 5289 | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think there's book by Heinlein that might fit here. I think it's by him that is.
The basic story is about a family in space and one--the grandmother?--writes a series. As I recall at times the adventures of the hero of the False Document were quoted in the main story.
Dr Bob might be able to help my poor memory on this--of course in this case it's been like twenty years since I read the book so my memory has a good excuse this time. Posts: 5289 | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Heinlein uses a few False Documents throughout his somewhat tied-together novels and short stories. The notebooks of Lazurus Long or cites from it come up often.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The novel extrinsic refers to, from which the collected pithy wisdom quotes by the protagonist were later collected separately in The Notebooks of Lazarus Long, is Time Enough For Love, the story of the oldest man alive, first introduced in the novel Methuselah's Children and also the (or a) protagonist in three subsequent Heinlein novels. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Long
The character of Lazarus Long is a great one, and one I believe Heinlein identified with and often was a mouthpiece on a range of social, political, religious, and cultural issues. Time Enough For Love is a tremendous novel, in size and scope and daring, like a symphony, and is arranged as one (with a Coda et. al.). Not only are there the great proverbs of the main character, but there are complete stories within the main story (one its own novel within the novel recalling the time Lazarus rescues an orphan girl, raises her until she can take care of herself, then she convinces him to marry her, and he stays with her, has a family, and is with her when she passes of old age with her great-grandchildren about her, before continuing on his journey elsewhere--it is both shocking and melancholic as one thus appreciates the pain of being comparably immortal and loving one who is not).
One of the quotes/proverbs I recall, as an example (paraphrasing): "Get your first shot off fast. It will unsettle him enough so you can make your second one count."
However, I'm not sure these Heinlein novels are what you are referring to, LD.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Heinlein novel LDWriter refers to is The Rolling Stones, the document-in-question involving the father (and later the grandmother) writing a soap opera serial. (No, you younger types, it has nothing to do with the rock group.)
I think we've seen enough examples to show that "you can get away with it." I sure hope so...I just remembered my last finished story, where I inserted a song-within-the-story. (Neither was an easy write...the idea for the story was some twenty years old and once I finished the rest of the story I agonized for months over the song lyric...)
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Another form of stories within stories is the Frame Story. One Thousand and One Nights is the most widely known frame story. The frame story of Scheherazade's dramatic complication satisfaction tells as many as 1001 embedded narrative stories, depending on the version, of her and her husband's nightly bonding and contending rituals. She has a life and death conflict and want and problem complication telling the stories satisfies. The Sinbad installments are also frame stories with embedded narratives within the frame story.
Homer's Odyssey, Chaucer's Cantebury Tales, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus, to name a few, are also frame stories. Frame stories come in a multifold variety of forms.
Overall and overarching a frame story is a story set in an epistolary (letter-, gospel-, lecture-, oral narration-, campfire-, or diary-like) frame. A frame story's setting is one where embedded narratives are told to an audience within the frame's milieu and setting. The audience is either present or not. The latter case is also an apostrophe: oral (soliloquy-like dramatic monologue) or written address to a person or persons not present. A frame story can be part of a narrative structure or the overall organizing feature of otherwise disjointed episodes. Since the embedded narratives may be the episodic adventures of a roguish persona as well, this frame story variety may also be a picaresque.
Frame stories are either designed as such or imposed upon priorly created short stories wrapped so as to organize them into a connected whole. A short story collection may be organized into a frame story.
More than one organizing principle in addition to plot's dramatic structure makes for a complex and deep narrative. Hence why self-imposed rules to keep it together and accessible and appealing may be called for.
Edited to add: Algis Budrys' (John Sentry, Algirdas Jonas Budrys) "The Stoker and the Stars" is a science fiction short story in a frame story form and an apostrophe, modeled after a press conference.
posted
Extrinsic, in this case the main character is named and at least one line of hers makes it from the False Document into the short story proper, recited to comedic effect. Aiyela (the short story MC) is reading one of apparently her favorite series about a female noir detective, and inspires to spit out a fairly foolish but witty jab at a space pirate.
Could you elaborate more on the need for distinction and structure? They would be naturally distinct. They would be set in entirely different universes (probably) with one MG character reading-up (to YA or adult) another's narrative as fiction. I would think keeping them connected would be more work. If someone read the detective books they would be stand alone, but if someone read the shorts they would just have someone for milieu purposes reading a work of fiction. What more structure would be suggested and why?
Posts: 336 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's been pointed out that the Book of Mormon is structured as a framing story. Tho on thinking about it, that's not unusual for its 'genre': frex, in the Bible, you generally don't get the deeds of the angel; you get someone's report on the deeds of various angels.
Posts: 782 | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
A straightforward distinction for an embedded narrative or False Document is its relevance to the plot. One Thousand and One Nights' embedded narratives each reflects to a degree Scheherazade's complication, setting, milieu, people's beliefs and people, and voice.
Theme sometimes is a connecting structural feature in an otherwise loosely related short story collection. Other connectors might be a single character who plays a role in each narrative but not necessarily the protoagonist or even focal character throughout: perhaps an auxilliary character, perhaps an extra who makes only a cameo appearance in all or is protagonist in one and cameo in another. Same with settings, other objects, perhaps technology or magic, and events as well.
If all the embedded narratives or False Documents are mysteries, for example, that's a connection but ought to connect to the frame story at least thematically if not to the plot.
False Documents are motifs that reoccur, otherwise they may seem incidental and extrinsic to the plot if they occur only once (MacGuffin); however, repetition might make them disruptive or artless if they don't provide new information through the companion rhetorical schemes of substitution and amplification.
A first False Document appearance, for example, might portray a detective solving a missing person case that relates to a personal object the protagonist is missing and presumes was stolen. The protagonist discovers it was mislaid instead. That sets up for how connections arise from the False Documents. Next, the protagonist might read how a detective trails a straying love interest for a client. The protagonist might feel similar suspicions toward a love interest, but realizes jealousy is causing the problems in the relationship. Artful repetition gives readers a feeling of familiarity when they know a motif signals a particular type of dramatic moment, but substituted with a different and still fresh feature. In the amplification mode, the first motif is comparatively low in antagonism and tension, mostly teaching readers the signals of the motif, subsequent ones no longer need to teach readers their signals but ought to escalate antagonism and tension.
Connections satisfy reader curiosity and pay off reader investments. In a sense, they are plot coupons that reward readers who are curious about the meaning of seemingly unexplained or irrelevant surprises or motifs. Plot coupons technically are objects or persons (or details) that a protagonist must collect in order to move forward, to another level, to gain the upper hand over a more powerful nemesis, and so on.
If the protagonist learns how to cope with a pressing problem from reading detective stories, that's a deeper connection. If the protagonist uses pithy remarks from reading detective novels, that too is deeper than just reading them within the frame story's setting.
"What more structure would be suggested and why?"
Structures other than and on top of plot come in many varieties; I've offered a few tips above. A crucial feature is: in addition to but related to plot. Reasons for more structural organization are to add depth to an otherwise one- or two-dimensional plot, to develop connections within a narrative and other connecting narratives readers can access and find appealing for their connections, and, while writing, to filter for plot cohesion and develop setting, plot, idea (theme), character, event, and discourse (voice) features that enhance the narrative's accessibility and appeals.
Responding to this thread gave me an idea about a perhaps complex way to connect a short story collection and appeal to readers. What if False Documents are themselves short stories in the collection? I don't know how many times I've wanted to read the False Documents and they were only alluded to or sparsely cited and in a few cases seemed like they might be more entertaining than their frame stories. I think other readers might appreciate reading False Documents too.
posted
Mistnorn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson and Dune by Frank Herbert quote extensively from ficticious histories, biographies and Scripture. I loved the sense of a larger world and would have loved spin-offs of those areas. Btw, Tolkien pulled from the Silmarillian in his books which came out long before the source book.
Posts: 164 | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yet I see a difference. Heinlein's Time Enough For Love includes an entire story within a story (see my post above) not an "excerpt" or "quote." It can, I believe, be read completely separately from the encompassing major portion of the novel and, yet, its inclusions enhances the remainder of the work and broadens the reader's appreciation of the pleasures, pains, responsibility (great touch), and the necessary coming to terms of being near immortal when nearly everyone else (including those one loves) is not.
In other works, included LOTR, we have mere glimpses and paraphrases. These produce a wholly alternate effect and charm--creating depth for most and, for Tolkien, also faux time/history within their world-building.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
The narrative in Time Enough for Love is an embedded narrative with a larger frame story within the larger-yet overall narrative. The cites in Lord of the Rings and Dune sagas are narrative-like; however, they reference false documents that are not embedded nor per se parts of frame stories.
A feature of embedded narratives, frame stories, false documents, and the like, is they enhance authenticating a narrative. They are milieu (culture) objects that are part of the created world's reality. The depth they add does so by enhancing authenticity.
In the case of transmitted gossip, rumor, or legend, they may be folklore, though brief. Idioms, folk sayings, and proverbs, also brief, are also folklore. An entire short or long embedded narrative may not be as brief as gossip, for one example, but can also be folklore if the narrative is part of a culture group's cultural transmission and identity sharing within the overall narrative.
Gossip and rumor do not have to be false. An argument can be made that Irulan's Dune epigraph entries are gossip and rumor. They are brief, do not intrinsically form complete narratives, though they are excerpts from false documents not given in their entirety, they are one person's beliefs--gossip and rumor, though derived from facts known to Irulan (To the victor go the spoils of war, even telling the victor-slanted history of the war)--and yet are taken as true in the milieu of the overall narrative.
Though none of the above necessarily must be folklore, ostension, a folklore concept, relates to a fact of the real world forming the basis for a narrative or a narrative forming the basis for a fact of the real world. The so-called copycat acts of malefactors copying acts from literature, video games, or films is a form of ostension. The acts do not have to be criminal to be ostension. Fans wearing look-alike costumes to film premieres is pseudo ostension: pretending, make believe, copycatting features of a narrative or real-life event, without fully copycatting. Contrarily, the wisdoms of Lazurus Long are ostension, reflecting wisdoms uttered publicly by celebrities priorly: Will Rogers, Mark Twain, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, to name a few.
Including embedded narratives, frame stories, false documents in a narrative are a form of ostension that uses the real-world phenomena of allusion and allegory and ostension itself to authenticate a narrative.
posted
This discussion has opened doors for a project I've had on the back burner for several years. It's gelling into a developed and ready to go project. Framing narrative over a frame story, over embedded narratives, false documents with allusions and allegories, nested narratives, the whole gamut. Wow! And ample time to write clearing up later in the month. Toes, fingers, and eyes crossed for luck.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
