posted
There is constant discussion about how much information needs to be provided in the first thirteen lines and how many questions can be left unanswered. So, class , tell me which questions the following first 13 answers, which it leaves unanswered, and which question is the 'hook' for you, if one is. Let's focus on those questions for this thread. Feel free to add the first 13 from your own favorite novel, and we'll look at those, too.
quote:Sham sat on a low stone fence in the shadows of an alley pulling on her boots. In the darkness that even the moonlight failed to reach, a sea breeze caressed her hair. She drew in a deep breath of the fresh air.
Even the sea smelled different here in the hilly area of Landsend. The Cybellian conquerors, like the Southwood nobles before them, had chosen to make their homes far from the wharves. In Purgatory, the westside slum where Sham lived, the ocean air smelled like dead fish, old garbage, and despair.
She stood up and ran her hands lightly over the silk of her courier's tunic to make sure that the black and grey material hung properly. She had to fluff the opaque sleeves twice to keep them from revealing odd bulges where she stored the tools...
posted
The puffed sleeves hiding her tools is the hook for me.
I don't know how old the MC is, but I know her name and gender - that's good. I have an idea that she's near the sea, and it's different from where she grew up. That's good. I have no idea what she looks like, which is no big deal.
Nits - I found it a little hard to read due to many commas. I didn't like the repetition of the word "even" in the first and second paragraphs. It's one of those "limited use" words for me.
posted
*bounce* Someone is willing to play! Thanks, KayTi.
I've noticed that a lot of beginner writers try to cram in a full description of each character as they are introduced. However, I've noticed as a reader that I rarely need or get more than the bare basics (name and gender, POV established, general location, and some intriguing action) in the actual first 13 lines of a novel. Sometimes you get more, but does anyone here feel like they must immediately have more description than is given in the above first 13 lines? Other comments?
posted
The first sign of a hook for me was the puffed sleeves too. Not a great hook but if she is a trusted author its no problem. The unanswered questions are, age of this character and the time the story is set in? Also, what is a girl doing out in pitch black?
Landsend is an extremely rural place, very rugged, very exposed. Not too many want to live down there where the Atlantic storms whip across the peninsula pretty regularly. Most who do live down that way, live in penzance which is kind of cradled in a cove some miles away from Landsend. I wouldn’t want to be down there in the dark lol. It is of course not established that the author is referring to that Landsend. I’m just saying cos I imagined myself there in pitch black and I thought “how spooky.” Of course Britain as a whole creeps me out and I grew up there. Give me the moon and warm California deserts over freezing cold creepy old bluffs any day.
BTW Debbie I have been reading those links you sent, thank you. We’re pretty much on the same page there. Not sure about the literal day thing but how could anyone be dogmatic, really. I know I wasn’t there. Hehe.
posted
I think that, here at Hatrack, there is an assumption made. It’s assumed that you are an unpublished author who will have to get past the literary bouncers just to get in the club. That means your first 13 will need to be really, really polished. Even if you have been published it still takes quite a bit of recognition to get away with long-winded and somewhat confusing introductions. You could take the above 13 and move it over to F&F and it would get tore up. You have to sort through the feedback and figure what are probably real issues. The rest is people trying to fit others into their writing mold. That’s not a bad thing because it’s still very helpful. It’s foolish not to be willing to learn from others.
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quote: Sham sat on a low stone fence in the shadows of an alley pulling on her boots.[Stone fence in an alley? I visualize an alley as a path between extremely packed buildings.] In the darkness that even the moonlight failed to reach, a sea breeze caressed her hair. She drew in a deep breath of the fresh air. Even the sea smelled different here in the hilly area of Landsend. The Cybellian conquerors, like the Southwood nobles before them, had chosen to make their homes far from the wharves.[ This strays a little from point of view, and borders on infodump] In Purgatory, the westside slum where Sham lived, the ocean air smelled like dead fish, old garbage, and despair.[<--Where the hook meets the line...]
She stood up and ran her hands lightly over the silk of her courier's tunic[A "silk" tunic in the slums? Wouldn't that look a little out of place? This is the CURVE of the hook, between the line and point.] to make sure that the black and grey material hung properly. She had to fluff the opaque sleeves twice to keep them from revealing odd bulges where she stored the tools...[<--The POINT of the hook.]
quote:I think that, here at Hatrack, there is an assumption made. It’s assumed that you are an unpublished author who will have to get past the literary bouncers just to get in the club. That means your first 13 will need to be really, really polished.
This is part of it, for me. I dissect the 13 lines so that I can learn from them, too. Not all of the question I pose are bad, they just are questions. It is for the writer to decide if he/she wanted those questions to arise. Sometimes I trust the writer to answer those questions, and sometimes I don't. Often, when I don't, I tell them that I don't. This gets me tagged as cruel, but I would want to know if a critiquer felt that way.
I like it being harder to get an "I like it" out of everyone. Yes, everytime I see my beautiful piece of fiction clawed to pieces it breaks my heart a little bit -- but it toughens me up, makes me look at my prose from a new perspective, and let's me know that I always have room to improve. That's real. It's a beautiful thing to come out the other side of a tough critique, makes me feel like a NAVY S.E.A.L. - not just anyone can take it. The more battle scars I get, the tougher the skin, and soon I'll be a member of the elite, not just a member. (Pun completely intended.)
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 23, 2007).]
posted
I totally agree that one should polish up their 13 lines the best they can and aim for a good hook. I'd guess that books with catchy first 13 probably sell better, and, heck, why not? I still thought it'd be fun to study what actual, published novels are like, though.
For example:
quote:She scowled at her glass of orange juice. To think that she had been delighted when she first arrived here--was it only three months ago?--with the prospect of fresh orange juice every day. But she had been eager to be delighted; this was to be her home, and she wanted badly to like it, to be grateful for it--to behave well, to make her brother proud of her and Sir Charles and Lady Amelia pleased with their generosity.
Lady Amelia had explained that the orchards only a few days south and west of here were the finest in the country, and many of the oranges she had seen at Home, before she came out here, had probably come from those same orchards. It was hard to believe in orange grooves as she looked out the window, across the flat deserty plain beyond the Residency, unbroken by...
from The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley.
I personally find this a very slow, somewhat boring start. It has the MC gender, POV established, and the general location, but lacks any intriguing action and the hook is very mild in my opinion. Yet I was intrigued by the front cover and the back cover of the book and read on. I'm very happy that I did because the 'real' hook for me was at the bottom of the first page, and I love this book. Is anyone hooked just by these 13 lines and, if so, by which line(s)?
Also, if you pick up a book and start reading to see if you like it, how far do you read--the first few paragraphs, the first page, a page or two? How long does the author really have to hook you, the reader?
[This message has been edited by DebbieKW (edited April 23, 2007).]
quote: I still thought it'd be fun to study what actual, published novels are like, though.
I validate that studying published authors and their techniques is a worthy endeavor.
I'm a big fan of David Gemmell's work - tragically, ended far too soon (He died just this past summer) -- and he is my main influence. I read every single book of his last year, all 28. I will put one of his beginnings up here, soon. I never considered his first 13, the sory just sucked me in. His heroes are deeper than they first appear. I just bought the second book in his Troy trilogy. He died writing the third, but left his wife with the end of the plot arcs. On the cover of this book - I don't have it on hand - is a quote from another published SF&F author: "David Gemmell is the only author that I have studied line by line, trying to figure out how he conveys so much."
I thought this quote appropriate in light of your thread's inspirations.
quote: ...if you pick up a book and start reading to see if you like it, how far do you read--the first few paragraphs, the first page, a page or two? How long does the author really have to hook you, the reader?
I have often said that I am an extremely patient reader. I normally give a writer fifty pages. Unless he/she is atrocious, a story usually sucks me in during that period. When I was younger and read a plethora of horror authors, it would take most about 35-50 pages to set the milieu; characters; and introduce the "guts" of the plot - not literally guts.
There is only one author I have read that cheated me so badly that I will never crack the cover of another of his novels: John Farris. The Axeman Cometh burned me so completely, I feel that he can never be trusted to cohesively finish.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 23, 2007).]
posted
Perhaps if you concentrated on the first 13 lines of author's first novels, it might be closer to what we're trying to help people achieve here.
Also closer would be the first 13 lines of short stories, first sales, if possible, as well.
Well, perhaps we should at least indicate if the book is the author's first, second, or whatever book, but I think studying first 13 lines that are good (whether in the first or tenth book the author wrote) is helpful as well. But I see your point.
I believe that: The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley is her 1st (maybe 2nd) book. When Demons Walk by Patrica Briggs is her 3rd book.
If someone wants to do a thread on published first 13 lines of short stories, that's fine with me. However, I don't have any anthologies or such lying around, so someone else will have to initiate that.
Babbler,
Now you have me interested in David Gemmell. Please do put up a first 13 from his books.
posted
I've been sucked in by all sorts of openings. But, if the first page doesn't read well, if the flow of words is awkward, if there is a lack of clarity -- all the things that point toward an inexperienced writer, I pass on it.
Remember, I'm standing in a bookstore. I don't have time to read the first 50 pages. If the first page passes muster, I may tuck it under my arm along with a couple of other "possibles" and go find a comfy chair to dig deeper and decide whether to buy the book or not.
I'm not all that certain that an author's first novel or short story is such a good place to look for examples. When I go to a bookstore and "read slush" for myself, I pretend it's a manuscript. I don't look at the author's name. I open to the first page of story (I often skip prologues if they are all in italics) and see if the writing grabs me. Pro or first timer, it makes no difference. The thing is whether the writing is good. Can I TRUST the author to be entertaining and interesting.
posted
I will dig up my copy of Legend, his first novel, soon. If you can, I suggest that you get a copy. The story behind it is interesting: he wrote his first novel while hospitalized -- he was diagnosed with lukemia or some such, and wrongly -- he was trying to deal with dying. Ironically, it was the first of twenty nine -- he died halfway through his thirtieth, at the keyboard. (R.I.P.)
Here are the first 13 lines of Waylander, David Gemmell's fourth book. It's what I have immediately at hand. These are the first 13 lines of Chapter One, not the Prologue:
quote: The had begun to torture the priest when the stranger stepped from the shadows of the trees.
"You stole my horse," he said quietly. The five men spun around. Beyond them the young priest sagged against the ropes that held him, raising his head to squint through swollen eyes at the newcomer. The man was tall and broad-shouldered, and a black leather cloak was drawn about him.
"Where is my horse?" he asked.
"Who is to say? A horse is a horse, and the owner is the man who rides him," answered Dectas.When the stranger had first spoken,Dectas felt the thrill of fear course through him, expecting to find several men armed and ready. But now, as he scanned the trees in the gathering dusk,he knew the man was alone. Alone and mad.
At the time he wrote this, he was a bouncer. He also put in hours as a delivery guy for a soda company -- if I remember it correctly.
Incidentally, this was an international bestseller.
My favorite of his novels is Ravenheart. I read it knowing the story behind that, too. The inspiration for the story might have clouded my judgment, but I don't regret it.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 23, 2007).]
posted
In the bookstore, I generally decide on a book by the back cover blurb and the first page or three. If it's an author I already know and love, I'll generally buy read further to get hooked. If the story is confusing or clearly not in a style I'd enjoy, I put it back down.
About the Waylander first 13 lines, I'm certainly hooked...for now. I hate head-hoping, and I'm not sure if the priest or one of the tortures (Dectas) is the POV here. (Rhetorical question Is the stranger going to be the MC or the priest? But I'd read on because I love scenes like this: not 'leave that man alone,' but 'you stole my horse'! I'm always intrigued by unexpected actions.
I'll see if my library has any of his books and get to reading/studying.
Babbler quoted: "David Gemmell is the only author that I have studied line by line, trying to figure out how he conveys so much." You know, I think that may be the sign of a really good first 13, too. Everything does double or triple duty--not only does it describe things, but it gives you a greater sense of the character or the situation or whatever. Hmm. *wanders off in thought*
posted
It's 3rd person omniscient. It will bounce back and forth from The Priest's PoV to The Stranger's (Waylander's) PoV.
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posted
I loved The Blue Sword, actually, and the sort of irrational anger at a glass of orange juice is just the kind of quirk that tells me I'm reading a character-driven story by an author who steps outside the sterotypes. I love McKinley's books, especially The Hero and the Crown. To me, character is much more important than plot. For that reason, I also love Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn Trilogy, though MANY people get bogged down in the intro of the first book. (Dragonbone Chair). Give me a realistic character and the plot usually takes care of itself because the character is living it.
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The point that I was trying to make about Blue Sword was that the first 13 lines would have been kicked off of F&F for Novels as boring but that usually readers give the author at least the first page before giving up on the book. From the first 13 of Blue Sword, you can't tell if the story will be exciting or just quirky (as you put it).
Personally, I prefer character-driven novels with both a strong plot and well-developed characters.
posted
Ok Babbler, tear this one up. Then I'll tell you what it is.
Arthur Walton turned twenty the day he reached the planet LorelSedolce. Or rather, after complicated calculations of how many seconds he had been in flight, and at what percentage of lightspeed, and therefore what amount of subjective time had elapsed for him, he reached the conclusion that he had passed his twentieth birthday just before the end of the voyage. This was much more relevant to him than the other pertinent fact-that four hundred and some-odd years had passed since the day he was born back on earth, back when the human race had not spread beyond the solar system of its birth.
BTW, I think you give one of the most useful crits here. Its not that you are always correct or that everything you point out should be changed, its the fact that you asked the question in the first place. It is important to the writer to understand what others my not immediatly understand.
Tracy
[This message has been edited by tnwilz (edited June 04, 2007).]
quote:Arthur Walton turned twenty the day he reached the planet LorelSedolce(Awkward name to read ). Or rather, after complicated calculations of how many seconds he had been in flight, and at what percentage of lightspeed, and therefore what amount of subjective time had elapsed for him, he reached the conclusion that he had passed his twentieth birthday just before the end of the voyage. (Why not just say this directly? It would accomplish the same point and, without the "Or rather..." it would flow better. Also, why play up what is actually a simple calculation I would think it would be especially easy for someone traveling in a relativisitc ship. ) This was much more relevant to him than the other pertinent fact-that four hundred and some-odd (Why not just say "more than four hundred"? ) years had passed since the day he was born back on earth, back when the human race had not spread beyond the solar system of its birth.
I like that we get info about the main character and a glimpse of the setting of the story, but the attempt at taking an informal tone by using "Or rather.." and "four hundred some-odd..." doesn't work for me. I'm a big fan of hard sci-fi, so I support using time dilation when discussing relativistic travel, but it could be introduced much "smoother". I think it would be better to just say something like:
"Arthur Walton turned twenty the day he reached LorelSeldoce. By Earth reckoning he would be about four-hundred years old, but years of voyaging at near the speed of light had aged him only one year for every twenty back home."
Then you can slip in the info about humans beginning to explore the universe.
[This message has been edited by Nova1021 (edited June 06, 2007).] Edit: Figuring out how to use UBB code...
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posted
Oh Richard, dont be such a chicken. What could possibly go wrong? The point is that even published works aren't perfect or above tuning up a bit. I just was curious how this piece would do in the first 13 forum.
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Second: I'm not afraid, I just don't always peruse this entire site.
Now that that's done...
quote: Arthur Walton turned twenty the day he reached the planet LorelSedolce[<--This name is wierd, but I can get by that.]. [Or rather, after complicated calculations of how many seconds<--I would think that to compute his birthday, hours should have been sufficient.] he had been in flight, and at what percentage of lightspeed, and therefore what amount of subjective time had elapsed for him, he reached the conclusion that he had passed his twentieth birthday[And this is a lot of trouble to go through to explain that he's still guessing] just before the end of the voyage. This was much more relevant to him than the other pertinent fact-that four hundred and some-odd years had passed since the day he was born back on earth[and with all that computation, he -- or the narrarator -- still gives a vague number.], back when the human race had not spread beyond the solar system of its birth.
This isn't thirteen lines, it's ten.
Believe it or not, I don't have a lot of complaint in these lines. I know a lot when I am through with them. Mostly, my NITS are just a matter of preference (in prose). This seems (as does a lot of Asimov's work) to beat around the bush a little. Older Sci-Fi works always read dense to me; a fact true of this. Until I have the other lines that are not included, I cannot proceed.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 08, 2007).]
"Four score and seven years ago..." Why not just say "eighty-seven?"
Short answer: because Lincoln was giving a speech, not narrating a book.
I guess this crit comes down to a matter of opinion. To me, saying "four-hundred some-odd" sounds like sloppy language. It sounds too colloquial to be coming from a narrator. If the author is trying to make the narrator have a conversational tone, then cool, it's fine, but that wasn't made clear in the first 13, so I mentioned it.
On the other hand, "Four score and seven years ago..." fits perfectly with Lincoln's "voice" in the speech, it has a good rhythm, and invokes a solemnity that fits the occasion.
Thank goodness the Gettysburg address doesn't start, "Eighty some-odd years ago..."
[This message has been edited by Nova1021 (edited June 08, 2007).] (Still getting the hang of UBB code...)
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posted
Ok Ok. I changed the names a bit to fool you. It's "Investment Counselor" by OSC. I actually don't disagree with the points mentioned. I guess its all open to intepretation. Oh and sorry for calling you Richard. I'll call you Rich from now on. (very optomistic name)
Andrew Wiggin turned twenty the day he reached the planet SorelLedolce. Or rather, after complicated calculations of how many seconds he had been in flight, and at what percentage of lightspeed, and therefore what amount of subjective time had elapsed for him, he reached the conclusion that he had passed his twentieth birthday just before the end of the voyage. This was much more relevant to him than the other pertinent fact-that four hundred and some-odd years had passed since the day he was born back on earth, back when the human race had not spread beyond the solar system of its birth.
Tracy
[This message has been edited by tnwilz (edited June 09, 2007).]
posted
Oh, Waylander, one of my favorites. I’m still learning to critique when something doesn’t work, but I know why this works for me.
The had begun to torture the priest when the stranger stepped from the shadows of the trees. [<- torturing a priest. I have no description of these guys, but I know they are evil.] "You stole my horse," he said quietly. [<- There is so much in this one line. First, the stranger is either tough or crazy, to step into a group of evil men. Second, he spoke softly, which says something. He’s not scared, or surprised. Third, he didn’t say ‘let him go,’ so he’s not a pure saint.] The five men spun around. Beyond them the young priest sagged against the ropes that held him, raising his head to squint through swollen eyes at the newcomer. The man was tall and broad-shouldered, and a black leather cloak was drawn about him.
"Where is my horse?" he asked. "Who is to say? A horse is a horse, and the owner is the man who rides him," answered Dectas. When the stranger had first spoken, Dectas felt the thrill of fear course through him, expecting to find several men armed and ready. [<- O.K., the bad guy wants a fight, and he’s not scared either.] But now, as he scanned the trees in the gathering dusk, he knew the man was alone. Alone and mad.
By here, I am so hooked. This first 13 has an interesting MC (the stranger) who is tough and confident, and willing to fight. It has an evil villain, who is also tough and confident. It promises a fight in the upcoming lines. It’s one against five, and I want to see the one kick their butts.
Looking back, we have four great elements: dialogue (lots of it), description and setting (its interwoven in the dialogue, so no infodump), plot with tension (a stolen hours, a tortured priest, a promise of a fight), and character (an MC that isn’t afraid of anything, and perhaps he is here to help the priest too, at least I want to hope so. I like the MC, but I’m scared of him too.)
[This message has been edited by Bill (edited July 04, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by Bill (edited July 04, 2007).]
posted
What attracts me to books is the cover, or title as often as being a work by a known author, or recomendation. Then I skim a page or two and decide if I like it.
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, tell me which questions the following first 13 answers, which it leaves unanswered, and which question is the 'hook' for you, if one is. Let's focus on those questions for this thread. Feel free to add the first 13 from your own favorite novel, and we'll look at those, too.
