posted
I may be one of the few people who thought Ender's Game was just OK and Ender's Shadow was alot better! I liked Bean alot more then young Ender. I just couldn't relate to the Ender character in Ender's Game. Bean just seemed more real, imo, and more interesting. Bean is a much more complex character then Ender in Ender's Game, imo.
Though, that said, I like Ender a ton in Speaker For the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind. I think he's a great character in those books. I just didn't care much for him in Ender's Game.
For me, Ender's Shadow is a much better book then Ender's Game. Though, my favorites of the Ender/Shadow books go like this: Speaker For the Dead, Xenocide, Ender's Shadow, Shadow of the Hegemon, Shadow Puppets, Children of the Mind, and my least favorite being Ender's Game.
I haven't read all of Shadow of the Giant yet (only read the preview chapters of course), but I'm pretty sure it'll be come before Ender's Game too!
DF2506 " I need to buy a copy of Speaker, Xenocide, and Ender's Shadow. I like them that much! "
Posts: 128 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I've found through my guinea pigs - I mean, my friends - that the ones that read ES first liked ES better, and the ones that read EG first liked EG better. I know it's not cut-and-dry going to be like that, but people definitely favor the main character of the first one they read.
I'm pretty sure it says in the introduction to EG that Speaker for the Dead was written first, and he decided to write the novel form of Ender's Game as a set-up. But I could be wrong Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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first in reply to jqueasy, yep, and i sotg is gonna rock. and two to vid, i read EG first and the same thing happend to me, i was convicned that Ender was much much kooler then bean. But after readin shadow i thaught bean was kooler, i didnt think less of Ender, i thaught of him as much as i did b4 i read shadow, i jus believe bean to be a better character.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I like them both, but which one I like better depends on what mood I'm in at any given time. If I'm kind of deep in thought and want to think harder, I like the Ender series better. The Shadow series is more fun and I enjoyed trying to figure out what will happen next a lot more because before you could figure out what was going to happen, there would be a twist. I liked Bean a lot even when I read EG, so I of course love ES. If I had to say I like one better, I'd have to pick EG because if I hadn't read that then I wouldn't have ever ventured into science fiction. (I guess I shouldn't say never, because anything can happen, but up to this point in my life it wouldn't have happened.)
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I guess I enjoyed Shadow a bit more, espeically the early part in Rotterdam, it really set up Bean much better than the early parts of EG did for Ender IMHO.
Speaker, Xenocide and Shadow were probably my favorites, but for whateve reason it took me a really long time to get into the last two. Like half way through the book. Once I did I couldn't stop reading though. The bean sequels were pretty good, but seemed a little more generic Sci-fi (don't get me wrong, wonderfully written, etc. scifi, but the plot was a bit less out there, and the ideas seemed just a little less original and new.
Posts: 187 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Just for the record, I read Ender's Game first, but I like Ender's Shadow better.
After reading Ender's Game, I thought it was just ok, but I was interested enough in the Ender/Hive Queen plot to read Speaker For the Dead. Glad I did because I loved Speaker For the Dead.
Then I read Xenocide and liked that alot, then I read Children of the Mind and well..I didn't like what happened to Ender, but I think I liked the rest. Of course, after that I read Ender's Shadow which I thought was great and alot better then Ender's Game. Then Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow Puppets, which were both really good.
I think Shadow of the Giant should be awesome. Can't wait to read it!
DF2506 " And of course, I can't wait to read the book that connects the Ender & Shadow books! "
Posts: 128 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I read Ender's Game first completely by accident. I say it on my english teachers desk and I'm sayt o myself: "Hey must be about a game I think I'll read it" I read it in under two days, and read what other books were availiable at library. then asked for both whole serieses for christmas.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I strongly suspect that people who prefer the Shadow books to the Ender books are all under twenty. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I loved Ender's Game, love all the books in the Ender's Series because of how everyone worked together, learned, ect. But, I do not like the Bean series as much. The first one was good, but after a while, it seemed to go downhill for me. Not because it was bad or anything...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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What happened to grammar, spelling and syntax? Have we forgotten how to write on this side of the forum? Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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To TomDavidson, I really don't think that's true. I am 15 and liked Ender's Game best of all, then Ender's Shadow, Speaker, Hegemon, Puppets, and last were Xenocide and Children of the Mind. That's a fairly even mix with EG at first and Speaker at a close third. It may seem like the younger set prefer the Shadow series to the Ender quartet because the main characters in the Shadow series are adolescents, but they were both so clearly written for adults. Most of the Shadow series is about politics and war, I found it no more difficult or simpler to the Ender books (faster paced, though). To say that anyone who prefers the Bean books to the Ender books is basically just saying that because the main characters are kids only kids are into it.
Posts: 93 | Registered: Nov 2004
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What you just said doesn't contractict what Tom said. If A then B doesn't mean if B then A.
In other words. (A=>B)=>(B=>A) is not a tautology.
In still other words, Tom said that those that prefer Ender's Shadow tend to be under twenty. He never said that those under twenty tend to prefer Ender's Shadow.
posted
I prefer........the Speaker series(though both are good). I think it makes you think more. It is more adult and in general is written better. I am still going to read any of the Shadow series books..........but Ender all the way.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Does it matter how old I am........I agree with Tom no matter what age I am. The children and the political action intise the younger generations(such as myself). But I still enjoyed the Speaker series more.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I hate to be the one to point this out, but in my experience, "My age doesn't matter" relates to anywhere from the 10-16 range in about 19 out of 20 instances.
posted
Actually, Steve intimated in a post now deleted that he has child(ren), so he could certainly be in the above 20 crowd. But I haven't been following very closely, and it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
Sixth, I think. Maybe seventh.
Posts: 6213 | Registered: May 2001
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Let's think for a second about why Shadow COULD be better than Ender's Game. OSC had about 15+ years more experience with writing when he wrote Shadow, it makes sense that he would be more skilled at introducing characters, setting up situations, and hiding/revealing info at the right times. I would imagine that if he were to re-write Ender's game completely from scratch, it would likely be even more incredible than it already is. Plus, remember, Ender's Shadow is A LOT longer than Ender's Game. I think that is due to OSC's increased skill. However, I also think that Ender's Shadow also gets bogged down in some parts, simply because it is longer. Ender's Game didn't really have enough room to get bogged down in philosophy and detail, so it definately has a faster pace. In short, EG took me about 2 days to read, ES took me a week and a half. I Liked EG better.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I don't think it's a fair comparison, because people who prefer Shadow likely take some of the information from Game for granted, and the Shadow novel wouldn't be as complete without that information. Preferring the Shadow series over the Speaker series I can grant (though I disagree), but choosing the one book over the other is like saying you like apple pie better than apples.
posted
I strongly suspect that people who prefer the Shadow books to the Ender books are all under twenty.<
Really? Hmmm. *checks age* Nope! Guess your wrong!
I'm 24 years old. I like Ender's Shadow better then Ender's Game. To me, Ender's Game is much more of a kids book then Ender's Shadow. Well, really the only thing that keeps it from being that completly are the fight scenes. IMO, though, to say that everybody who like something must be under a certain age is not right. Everybody is different. Some younger readers will like Ender's Game better and some will like Ender's Shadow better. And I'm sure some older readers, like me, will like Ender's Shadow alot better. You just can never tell.
For me, I find Ender's Shadow to be a more complex and more interesting book then Ender's Game.
I like Bean alot better. He's more of an introspective character then Ender was in Ender's Game. He plans ahead of things and he figures things out faster. I like that. I also liked that we got to see more of Bean's history then we saw of Ender's and I like how there was a real mystery behind Bean. Where did Bean come from? I was really interested in that.
I just didn't find Ender that interesting in Ender's Game. He just wasn't likable to me, while Bean was. I could relate more to Bean and his struggle, then I could to Ender.
That said, I love Speaker For the Dead and Xenocide. Those are amazing books. Especially Speaker. I like Ender alot better in Speaker. I like how Ender has changed and how he just goes in there and changes those kids lives and I also like the piggie storyline. Ender is much more likable in Speaker For the Dead and Xenocide. Heck, I liked him alot in Children of the Mind though I didn't like what happened to him..
Overall, I like Speaker For the Dead and Xenocide the most out of the Ender/Shadow books, but when it comes to Ender's Game VS. Ender's Shadow, I like Ender's Shadow better.
I think Ender's Shadow not only has a better main character, imo, but in Ender's Shadow we find out so much more about Battle school and we see more of the other characters in Battle school. OSC was able to look at the concept, characters, etc of Battle school and just expand on it and develop it more. It all seemed much more real, imo.
I know I'm in the minority on this one. More people like Ender's Game for some reason. I don't know. I just think Ender's Shadow is alot better. Though like I said, I like the Speaker/Xenocide books the most, then Ender's Shadow, then the other Shadow books, then Children of the Mind, and finally Ender's Game.
DF2506 " I'm sure I'm going to like Shadow of the Giant more then Ender's Game too."
Posts: 128 | Registered: Sep 2004
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"I could relate more to Bean and his struggle, then I could to Ender."
Whereas I was the exact opposite. I'm so NOT introverted that it's almost funny, and Bean seems like a completely unsympathetic, alien, pointless character to me; turning him into an infant sooper-geenuz completely dehumanized him for me.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think it all depends on what you're looking for when you open one of Card's books. The Speaker series is more analytical, I believe, and has greater roots in reality, especially emotionally-wise. The Shadow series tells an excellent sci-fi story - much better than the Speaker series, in my opinion - but the story is at many times too unbelievable to feel a closeness to the characters.
As for the starter books, I don't know. I read EG first, of course, like everyone should have, and loved it. But I think I cared for Bean more in ES (but NOT in the rest of the series), likely because of the background story we were provided.
posted
Whereas I was the exact opposite. I'm so NOT introverted that it's almost funny, and Bean seems like a completely unsympathetic, alien, pointless character to me; turning him into an infant sooper-geenuz completely dehumanized him for me. <
Thats basically how I feel about Ender in Ender's Game. In Ender's Game, Ender just seems unsympathetic, alien and pointless. Of course, he's not a 'infant sooper-geenuz'. lol.
And yes, Bean is a genius, but I like that about him. He uses his brains and he figures things out. And through him we learn more about battle school, more about Ender, more about everthing else. I also like that he does what he wants and he doesn't let anyone control him. Ender let himself be controlled. Ender was smart. Maybe not as smart as Bean, but I think he was smart enough to figure out a way to defeat his enenmies without killing. I think he could avoided his fate too, but he just let things go. He just played the game. I like that Bean didn't play the game.
And like they said in Ender's Shadow, Bean, the slum kid actually trapped his enemy, while Ender, the 'normal' kid, killed his enemies. Me: I like the guy who can trick and trap his enemy more then the guy who lets them come to him and kills them.
Plus, I like Bean's mysterious past and I like how he interacts with the cast more. Bean is much more human to me. Much more interesting.
That said, in Speaker For the Dead, Ender became such a great character. Better then Bean even. Ender became this wonderful character, who learned from his past, had to try his best to live with what he did, and tries to make up for it. Ender was a much more complex and interesting character in Speaker, Xenocide, and Children.
So I definitly like older Ender more then Bean, but I like Bean more then younger Ender. lol.
I know I'm in the minority though.
I just can't see whats to like about young Ender though..
DF2506 " I also didn't care for Peter in Ender's Game, but I do like him in the Shadow books. Just like Valentine was an ok character in Ender's Game and then became a much better character in the Speaker books! "
posted
hmmm let me cover as many points as i can... i'm 24...read enders game first and it's still my favourite! I agree that there are things from EG that are taken as known in ES that make ES easier to enjoy.
People say they can't relate as well to Ender but i like his character the best because he's smart and strong and has to be content in himself and distant from others, even though he wants friendships he knows what the ultimate goal is for him and it requires putting up with what's being done to him and making the best out of it...
bean is smart but we know it's because of the key so he really isn't doing more than he's expected to by achieving the things he does. He seems less accesible to me as he disregards interpersonal relationships - "speaking the language of the heart with an awkwardly foreign accent"...he just doesn't seem to have care about moral dilemmas the way Ender would have...
Posts: 46 | Registered: Dec 2004
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"Plus, I like Bean's mysterious past and I like how he interacts with the cast more. Bean is much more human to me."
So unemotional, mysterious characters who achieve all their goals without being manipulated by others seem more human to you?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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" So unemotional, mysterious characters who achieve all their goals without being manipulated by others seem more human to you? "
There's nothing unemotional about Bean, imo.
In Ender's Shadow he's all about emotion. There's his guilt about Poke, there's his need for survival, his need to fit in, etc.
And Bean didn't achieve all his goals. Heck, most of the time Bean didn't know what his goals were. Thats very human. He just wanted to survive. Also very human. And Bean was curious about what was really going on at Battle school and actually tried to find out. While Ender, to me, came off as a blind sheep who got thrown into a situation and just went with it. He just came to the school and got into the game.
As for being manipulated by others, I guess a lot of humans are. That said, I think Ender could have easily avoided it. Though, I guess people could argue that its more human that he didn't.
I guess what it come down to, in the end, is, I just don't like Ender in Ender's Game. He's very unemotional (expect yes, near the end where he learns what the game is) and I just don't feel any connection to the character in Ender's Game. He's too miltary minded. He's too into the game.
I like that Bean was more complex. He has history to him: some we knew right away about and some we found out, he had regrets, he was smart, but not perfect. He figured things out, because he had this need to survive and because he was curious. He didn't let the teachers control him. I like that. I found Bean's story in Ender's Shadow more interesting. I like Bean better as a character too.
I'm pretty sure that EG was not originally written or marketed as a "kid's" book.<
Well, for me it comes off as a kid's book or at least a less complex novel. With Ender's Shadow, we get more backstory, more switching between characters, more info on battle school, etc. With Ender's Game, well, its much more straightforward. Pretty much Ender's story at the battle school. Nothing that special about it imo, expect maybe the twist about the game. Its not the worst story I've read though. If it had been, I would have never read the other books. I found the mystery of the Buggers interesting, I liked the ending and how Ender "met" the Hive Queen. That stuff interested me. What kept me reading Ender's Game was the mystery of why Ender was so important. And also what was the purpose of the battle school? Would the Buggers come back? How would would they deal with them? Etc.
Ender's Game is an ok novel.
I just like Ender's Shadow better.
To each his or her own.
DF2506 " I like Ender much more in Speaker & etc. While I don't care for Ender in Ender's Game, I have to admit that his past adds to the character in Speaker & etc. The past helps make him a character full of regret, remorse and a character that wants to do right and make up for what he did. Much more interesting and much more likable."
Posts: 128 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Also bean trys to see how things work(vent system in B. School) and tries to work out problems, while Ender just goes with the flow.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
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" Also bean trys to see how things work(vent system in B. School) and tries to work out problems, while Ender just goes with the flow. "
Exactly. I definitly like how Bean is curious about things and how he tries to solve problems. Ender "going with the flow" was ok, but it was just more interesting, imo, to see Bean working through things, figuring things out, etc.
Also, I think I like Ender's Shadow more because, like OSC said, Ender's Shadow is a "character novel". Its more about the character, Bean, and his story. While Ender's Game, like OSC said, is an "event" novel. "Event" novels interest me less. I'm more into the characters, especially when reading a book. For me, one of things thats great about books is how you can get so much more into characters. You get into their heads, see their thoughts, and can really see what makes them work. I like those kind of novels. Thats why Ender's Shadow, Speaker For the Dead, and Xenocide are so much more interesting to me. Ditto with the Alvin books.
Ender's Game might work better as a movie really. Ender's Shadow is prob best as a book though.
DF2506 " And if the two were combined into a movie, then that would be very cool, imo."
Posts: 128 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I prefer EG over ES, though not by a very large margin. As for the sequels, the Speaker books definitely beat out the Shadow books. Don't get me wrong, I love them all, but the Shadow books are more like political thrillers while I prefer the more sci-fi and philosophical themes in the Speaker books. It gives you more to think about, and makes them far more interesting to re-read. Comparing Ender vs. Bean is also no contest for me. I like Bean just fine, but I don't see how people relate to him more than Ender. Ender is just more... well... human. Even Bean barely considers himself human. The kid is an overgrown science experiment, literally! Ender's genius is just more believable, as are his actions and feelings. One of my pet peeves about the Shadow books (and I really don't have many) is that OSC seems to be intent on convincing us all that Bean is really the one responsible for all of Ender and Peter's accomplishments which they went down in history for. He even suggests that it was really Bean's idea to blow-up the Bugger homeworld in the last battle! I just hope that in SotG it doesn't somehow end up being Bean who wrote the Hive Queen and the Hegemon. Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I totally agree with your 'pet peeve' it took me about 5 reads of ES to get over that and just appreciate that Bean as a character in his own right that happened to be extra smart... i definately felt like Ender's genius was taken away from him...and from me in a sense Posts: 46 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I thought that Shadow Puppets was the best of them all. It showed how Bean thinks of his enemies and trys to be them(achelles). Also how he can kill just like Ender, but he dosen't cry about it.(!Spoiler!) He just pulled out that handgun and shot achelles in the head. While Ender had to hand to hand fight (i forget his name) and he didn't know that he would kill him, only hurt him, while Bean knew he was going to kill. Going to pull out that gun and shoot.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Someone once said "When you read Shadow Puppets, be sure to continue through all the way to the acknowledgements. They're very well-written, too. [/shameless]" Posts: 333 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I find it hard to be partial about comparing the two books. Because when I read about Ender in EG, I see the things that will help him become the giant of a man he will become in the Speaker for the Dead series. ES provides an interesting perspective. Ender is made more human and fallable in order to contrast with Bean's logical, machine-like calculations. However, you are using the further character development in ES to judge the 'original' Ender in EG. I don't know if that makes to much sense, but what I'm trying to say is that its hard to appreciate EG for what it is having read ES.
That's another problem I have with this comparison. Ender's game was a novelette, which was only written out as a full novel when OSC decided to write Speaker for the Dead and felt he couldn't do it without either an introduction that was too lengthy, or a prequel. So he revised Ender's Game to include the prequel to Speaker for the Dead (i'm sure you all know this, just stating what my understanding is so you can see where I'm coming from). So IMHO, comparing Ender's game to Ender's Shadow isn't comparing apples to apples...they're not the same animal. A more accurate comparison would be between Ender's Shadow, and Shadow of the Hegemon. ES and EG are almost written by a different author--15 years and many books changes a man.
Two more things--1) no i don't have a point and 2) I'm an engineer, not a writer, so please excuse my spelling, grammer, lack of style, etc etc. Posts: 10 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Well I also like Enders Shadow more than Enders Game -- as long as were only comparing those two books, because in my mind the Ender series is much better than the Shadow series but as far as a competition between just ES and EG I think that ES is better.
ES just has more drama and feeling and you really see Bean develope as a 'human' from being the cold calculating child to an emotional but still ingenious person and even facing and outsmarting his 'nemesis' Achilles. Wheras in Enders Game Ender really didn't change he was for the most part the same middle-class child who complained about the games throughout the book. I am not critisizing EG it is still an awesome book but I just thing that ES was better. But there is no competition when it comes to "Shadow of the Hegemon" and "Speaker For the Dead" Speaker takes the cake -- and for that matter the whole bakery.
Posts: 163 | Registered: Nov 2004
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" But there is no competition when it comes to "Shadow of the Hegemon" and "Speaker For the Dead" Speaker takes the cake -- and for that matter the whole bakery. "
MUCH agreed. I like Ender's Shadow better then Ender's Game, but Speaker For the Dead is definitly better then Shadow of the Hegemon and Speaker is also, imo, better then the other Ender/Shadow books too.
Speaker For the Dead is my favorite of the Ender/Shadow books. Its such a GREAT book, imo. Ender is a great character in Speaker and I really like all the kids & their mother too. And the story about the Piggies and the Hive Queen and the virus are just great.
Xenocide is definitly my second favorite. I like the continuing story of Ender, the kids, the piggies, the Hive Queen, and the new story that pops up in Xenocide, about Han, his daughter, and their planet, is also really good.
Overall, Speaker For the Dead is definitly the best! Love that book! I need to read it again soon!
DF2506 " When it comes to Ender's Game vs. Ender's Shadow though, Ender's Shadow definitly wins for me! The order in which I like the books so far is: Speaker For the Dead, Xenocide, Ender's Shadow, Shadow of the Hegemon, Shadow Puppets, Children of the Mind, and then Ender's Game."
posted
To me Ender was far eaiser for me to relate to than Bean. Ender was constantly having to deal with enormous expecations being placed upon him, expectations he really was quite ambivalent about. Ender's greatness was in many ways unwanted. Bean on the other hand doesn't seem to have the same sort of ambivlence.
I have enjoyed the Shadow series but I too have problems with how the Enderverse has been rewritten. This includes giving Bean so much more credit than Ender, and now, possibly, tearing down the acomplishments of Peter.
Posts: 2 | Registered: May 2004
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Then again the ES series had characters with short and/or much more memorable and prounouncable names. I didn't bother with learning the portugese accents so i pronouced the chars as:
Nov-in-ya Quim Ol-hal-doh Greg-oh and pretty much you get the picture. I pronounced them as I would in english. In ES/series the names are far shorter and more rounouncable. Itu, Surly, Vlad, and come on how hard is it to pronounce Dink!Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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