posted
Most mainstream Christianity (dkw can correct me if I'm wrong) breaks it down into three "possibilities" -- the joining of believers to greet a returning Christ either "before", "during" or "after" the "end times" and the Great Tribulation (those years when all the bad things talked about in Revelation happen).
Some call it a "rapture" because they believe that believers will be captured up to meet with the returning Christ in the air.
Some believe he will descend here and they will meet with him here.
Some don't use the term Rapture at all - -- just talk about Christ's return ("rapture" as a word is not in the Bible)
(and I have to stop here because work is intruding)
posted
Okay - I can't stay out of this thread between phone calls...
Rapture literally means being "caught up" or "snatched up". Believers in the rapture believe that they will be snatched away to some place safe to be saved from the horrors of the tribulation (those are a pre-trib believers)
quote: About 85 percent of Christian theologians and Christians who have studied the Bible (as opposed to just reading it) believe in the Rapture and the Tribulation, which will be followed by a 1000 years of Christ reigning together with the resurrected saints (referred to as the Millennial Kingdom).
Some believe this time, based on the writings in the Book of Revelation, of Christ calling apart his believers, will be during the apocalypse, and some believe it will be after -- that we will have to live through the end time, but maybe in a safer place here.
posted
The whole rapture, endtimes, millennialism stuff wasn’t really a big part of “mainstream” theology until 1830, when a British missionary to the US, John Nelson Darby, popularized one particular view of it, known as pre-millennial dispensationalism. His view caught on in certain circles (much more in the US than it ever did in his native country) and led to books like Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series. It still gets a lot more airplay in Christian “pop” literature than it does in academic theology.
Evangelical/Conservative Christians tend to fall into one of the three categories Farmgirl describes. Liberal Christians tend to think it’s irrelevant speculation or complete nonsense, depending on who you ask.
Note, please, that I’m using Liberal-Evangelical here as theological terms. They are not measurements of level of commitment, or how seriously one takes ones faith. There are just as many “casual” evangelicals as there are liberals, and just as many deeply committed Christians on both sides of this particular divide.
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posted
I don't have a Bible with me, so I can't be specific, but I believe that most of the beliefs about the rapture come from Paul's letter (I'm sorry I can't say which one) to the Thessolonians. (I know I spelled that wrong, like I said I don't have my Bible with me.) I know he writes (although this may be to another church) that "we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed." People take this to mean that not all Christians will phyically die before going to Heaven.
Based on my upbringing I would say that most mainstream religions don't really teach much about the rapture one way or the other. It's the kind of thing that you pretty much have to do your own reseach on and come to your own conclusions about. And there are a lot of people who don't believe in the rapture at all. There's a theory that the events in Revelation were actually a symbolic history of the 1st century.
My own belief is that I kind of hope there is a rapture because I think it'd be cool, and I really don't want to go through the tribulation. But, I don't have a strong opinion other than that because I've heard too many good aguements for too many differing views. I guess it's just a wait and see kind of thing.
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posted
There are people in my own church who differ in their personal opinions regarding pre-, mid- or post- in terms of when said rapture happens.
Basically, a lot of mainstream Christians feel that we shouldn't be so concerned about these things -- figuring the future is speculation. We let God take care of that, and our focus is just on our relationship with God, and not so much on what John is trying to say in Revelation. We believe it will happen (Christ's return) so we need to be focused on our lives as Christians, not on the when, where and how.
posted
I was raised to believe in the rapture, but after my own study I determined that I don't really believe in a whooshing away of Christians before the Tribulation. I think it's likely that post-trib, when Jesus comes back, we will be transformed into our Heavenly bodies without actually dying.
I think the idea of pre-tribulation rapture is unfounded in scripture, and seems to be based mainly on the fear that Christians have of having to endure the tribulation with non-believers.
My dad's point of view seems to be that Christians will be here during the tribulation, but it'll be, in his words, "like the cats in the fire." I think he was refering to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.
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posted
This is how AG.org, the official site of the Assemblies of God (the Pentecostal denomination I grew up in) describes the Rapture:
quote:The Rapture. Jesus Christ is the central figure of prophecy, just as He is the central figure of the entire Bible. The Rapture of the living saints is the first phase of what is commonly called the Second Coming. To the Christian who truly loves Jesus, the sudden appearance of Christ in the air will hold no fear, dread, or disappointment. This event is the blessed hope Paul mentions in Titus 2:13. At this time, Christ comes and snatches away His church without actually setting foot on the earth. The rapture of the saints is best described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, and 1 Corinthians 15:51,52.
The end times will be full of frightening events. Christians will be spared from suffering some of them by being snatched away in the Rapture. But we will not escape them all, and Christ gave warning and instruction on how to live in the last days (Matthew 24:4-46).
Believers who have died before the Rapture will be resurrected with incorruptible bodies at the Rapture. According to 1 Corinthians 15:52, the bodies of the living saints will be changed too as they are snatched away. The Bible does not give a complete description of the new bodies. The full revelation will be a glorious surprise. We are given a peek at what they will be like in the Gospel accounts of Jesus after His resurrection and in 1 Corinthians 15:52.
The link above send you to their general overview of what they believe happens in the 'End Times'.
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posted
Just so others know where I, and many on this sight, are coming from -- the LDS don't have any Rapture concept. That is partly why the idea is so unfamiliar.
From an LDS point of view, the good and the evil will live through trials side by side. In fact, it will be the righteous that will suffer the most since they will be trying to avoid what the wicked bring on themselves. It will get to where the righteous have to form their own communities just to survive (the only place where those who don't want to war can go to be relatively safe).
Eventually the violence and wickedness will get so bad that God will have to interfere in order to save the righteous. However, it won't be from a Rapture where the righteous will be whisked away or in an instant changed. Rather, the wicked will be destroyed by their own actions and the forces of God (i.e. "natural" desasters). Eventually the only ones left on the Earth when Christ comes will be those who have kept themselves from the wicked and violent fray. They will remain behind for the Millenium; or the rule of Christ on Earth.
In some ways its the direct opposite of the Rapture. The relatively righteous will be the ones left behind.
Of course, like the Rapture theories, there are various interpretations about how it will all work.
posted
The verses linked to by Taalcon were the same ones that my pastor gave me regarding the rapture, but none of them really give an idea that the rapture would happen before the tribulation.
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posted
Occasional -- the LDS point of view is remarkably similar to the view in the church I grew up with (which is not LDS, and I no longer attend that church).
May I ask -- in the LDS view of things after trib - will the righteous that are left at the end still be in their present mortal bodies, or somehow transformed to a higher level?
posted
The way I understand the LDS view is that those living during the Millennium are not 'changed' until they physically die of old age, but they will not 'taste of death', but be changed instantly. Life (and family systems) continue in the Millennium, but under a Theocracy.
posted
They will remain behind as normal bodied people. However, there will be a huge escalation in the Resurrection where people will rise from the dead. As was stated, those who die will do so at a very old age (age of a tree), but be Resurrected almost instantaneously as if they never died. Temple and Missionary activities will be the main work.
Yes, you heard me right about missionary work. Mormons and people of other faiths will be living during the thousand years. Righteous does not mean "Mormon" or even "Christian" in the context of who will survive the tribulations and Return of Christ. I am not even sure that they will all be Christians religiously, although they will recognize him as the King and Ruler of Earth.
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posted
On thing I never understood about the Rapture. I understand that the Righteous will be caught up into Heaven, but who remains behind? I know the wicked will, but it always seems to indicate a large contingent of believing Christians. So, what then constitutes Rapture Christians and Left Behind Christians?
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posted
The Rapture myth was created in Scotland in 1830 when a girl named Margaret McDonald had a dream. There were two preachers that lived in the vicinity that spread the new doctrine world wide. One of the preachers was named Irving the other Darby. There is a good book called "Incredible Cover Up" by Dave MacPherson that covers all of it. Most scholars do not believe in a pre trib rapture. Most Christian Churches wont touch the subject. From my experience people who actually read the Bible for themselves, dont believe in the Pre Trib.
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posted
Hmmm, I actually thought that LDS scripture was supportive of a "type" of rapture. There seems to be passages concering being "caught up" to meet the decending Christ. But it does seem to be post-trib also. Supposedly those "caught up" are those deemed Celestial and will experience a "change"--ressurrection at that time, while those not caught up might be categorized as Terrestrial (most if not all of the Telestial will have died in the tribulation).
I could be wrong, though.
Edit: Interesting. As I read said scriptures now, it seems fairly clear that those caught up will be those who have died previously. It speaks repeatedly of the graves being opened.
Edit 2: Then there is this passage from 1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
posted
Bev, it seems like in the context of the 1 Thes. 4, that it is more of a hopeful statement for the living. Basically, it says the righteous dead will go first. However, the living will eventually do the same thing, so they shouldn't be concerned about their future state.
I would put the message this way: The living are not going to keep the dead from resurrection in Christ just to wait for them. The living, on the other hand, are not going to miss the opportunity to arise in glory in the same way as the dead. The living should be comforted by that.
posted
Farmgirl, I tend to be among the school that divides eschatology (study of the “end-times”) into two major categories – apocalyptic eschatology and prophetic eschatology. “Apocalyptic” eschatologists tend to focus more on the books of Daniel and Revelation, “prophetic” eschatologists tend to focus more on Isaiah, Amos, Micah, etc. To vastly oversimplify and overgeneralize, “apocalyptic” eschatologists believe that God’s Kingdom will come on earth when humanity/the world gets so bad that God gets fed up and takes over. So things getting worse and worse is a sign of the kingdom coming nearer. “Prophetic” eschatologists believe that the kingdom will come when humanity learns to act like it’s already here – when justice, compassion, peace, etc become the rule, rather than the exception. So things getting better and better are a sign of the kingdom coming nearer. My eschatology falls under the “prophetic” heading, which means the whole “rapture/tribulation” issue is pretty much a moot point.
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posted
Occasional, I had never heard that take on it. I had always been taught growing up that the most righteous (living) would be caught up to meet Christ and then descend with him. Though, it was always more "speculation" than doctrinal. As I study scripture in the future, I will consider a different way of looking at it.
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posted
That is a fascinating take on it, Dana. I had always kinda looked at it as a combination of the two, a polarizing of good and evil where the wicked have gotten so vile that they bring down God's wrath upon them, yet at the same time, there are communities of people who have grown closer, and closer to God to the extent that they have truly formed His kingdom on the earth and have it ready and prepared for his coming.
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posted
Thanks dkw -- that was interesting. I will have to say that I've always been in the “apocalyptic” eschatologists camp, but I haven't really looked much at the “prophetic” eschatology -- so you have given me something new to study.
posted
I agree about the "backwards rapture" idea...in that it's kinda like the wicked get swept away in the end. Alot of people use the verse in Revelation describing the harvest to depict the rapture of God's church, but when read it shows what happens to the "grapes" after they're harvested...they are immediately crushed in the winepress.
I've always felt like major stories in the Bible also symbolically represent future events...in that nothing is new under the sun. When the NT describes two workers in the field, and suddenly one is gone and one remains, I believe that it's talking about the wicked that are suddenly gone, because the flood of Noah is also used to describe the event.
This is inarticulate but I'm posting it anyway.
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