posted
A reasonable topic to approach in an adult fashion, if you so desire. Please change the thread title, though.
Posts: 441 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
If heavily regulated by government and protected and recognized by Law inforcement then yes. Think of the "Guild" from Firefly or the Geisha's from Japan. Street whores and pimps end up promoting the abuse of individuals, hurt the economy because its untaxable. I know that in certain small town communities the "house" so to speak is actually protected by local law inforcement and a % of the earnings are givin to the town and given medical treatment.
Woman wishing to become prostitutes I'ld imagine would be encouraged to go through the proper training and channels to do so because
A) They wouldn't be harmed by abusive johns.
B) Aids and other STD's would not be spread because it would be heavily regulated so that those who did have aids would be given treatment and retired and johns with aids wouldnt be serviced.
C) Because it would be regulated it can be taxed and provide jobs and thus a plus to society, eventually the "Guilds" would become a prominant part of society.
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*nods with Megan* Yeah, I think they're more like the "escort services" we have, would be the closest equivalent. They are supposed to provide hospitality to their guest, make him comfortable, show him a good time. That did not traditionally extend to sex-- at least, you know, not for a long time. And just like our "escort services", yeah, they've gotten a bad rep and some people now assume all of them provided sex on a regular basis.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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What I liked about the article is that it pointed out that the "clients" of these women and girls who are forced to prostitute are never arrested, prosecuted, or even detained. And if the men weren't supplying the demand, perhaps the sex slave trade would die off.
posted
Yeah, it's Britain. But we're from many countries here, so I figured it was still relevant. It's also regarding women who are forced into the sex trade, as opposed to those women who willingly enter it.
In a strange way, maybe making prostitution legal would actually solve the problems for those forced into it. IF a guild ala firefly as Blayne said above was also instituted.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I think there would still be underground prostitution. There are always going to be men who want a "slave" situation going on, a "you HAVE to do what I tell you", instead of the respect that going to a guild would imply.
(I'm not saying the article wasn't relevant. It was, and was interesting as well. But I'm just saying that that's not the situation everywhere. )
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I've always seen prostitution as something that should be legal but isn't. Personally, I don't see any harm in it. If someone wants to sell, and someone wants to buy, so what? If it's legal it can be regulated and both the sellers and buyers cared for. People have sex drives, you know?
Note: I announced this to a college sociology class about 3 years ago. I was 29, and the rest of the class between 18-22. You would have thought I'd announced that child pornography should be legal. I just didn't expect that kind of reaction from people younger than I am.
quote:Note: I announced this to a college sociology class about 3 years ago. I was 29, and the rest of the class between 18-22. You would have thought I'd announced that child pornography should be legal. I just didn't expect that kind of reaction from people younger than I am.
Well, SO, you probably presented an idea they'd never thought of before and that was contrary to the ideas they grew up with. First instinct is to reject that idea loudly - then after it's had a chance to sink in and percolate a while, they might begin to consider it.
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posted
I have enormous trouble imagining an American society which permitted prostitution but did not victimize women, so I am against it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I agree that it should be legal. I once caught some of a documentary about the houses in Nevada. The girls there said they felt very safe. When asked how they felt about their job, they generally talked about how great the money was. If there's no victim, I don't see why there's a crime.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
It should not only be legalized, but also unionized. Any exploitation of the workers could lead to a widespread labor action.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
For starters, much public assistance requires being willing to take a job if offered. Would we exempt prostitution jobs from this requirement? If not, aren't we saying something about prostitution that makes it different from any other job?
There are two sex industries in this country: one where the workers - mostly women - are in it largely by choice, able to command good to excellent salaries and to exercise reasonable control over their working conditions.
The other is staffed by victims of coercion - either economic or physical - who sell themselves for a place to crash, a couple rocks, some food, or just so they only have to be abused by one person (their pimp).
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: It should not only be legalized, but also unionized. Any exploitation of the workers could lead to a widespread labor action.
I don't think it should be unionized. You need to allow for competition between brothels.
Seriously though, I don't think that exploitation would be an issue in a legalized environment. Some pretty heavy Federal or state run oversight could deter these types of issues, and the extra oversight could even be funded by the high tax revenues generated by prostitution.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Seriously though, I don't think that exploitation would be an issue in a legalized environment. Some pretty heavy Federal or state run oversight could deter these types of issues, and the extra oversight could even be funded by the high tax revenues generated by prostitution.
As long as there is a market for $20 quickies there will be people working without that oversight.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: For starters, much public assistance requires being willing to take a job if offered. Would we exempt prostitution jobs from this requirement? If not, aren't we saying something about prostitution that makes it different from any other job?
Dags, Are there any jobs that are currently exempt from public assistance positions?
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Yes it is legal in Nevada. However, the licensed trade has not replaced non-regulated practices. So, the benefits you imagine have not been realised. There is some tax collected. However, they do not ofset the cost of enforcement. So, we are not generally better off. Nor are the individual contractors better off.
With regard to public assistance, there has been at least one instance of an OJT job training provided under a Federal workforce developement program. Every time I have been to Washington for workforce development meetings someone always asks if it really happened or if it is an "Urban Legend" It really happened.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: For starters, much public assistance requires being willing to take a job if offered. Would we exempt prostitution jobs from this requirement? If not, aren't we saying something about prostitution that makes it different from any other job?
Dags, Are there any jobs that are currently exempt from public assistance positions?
I don't know. I'd like to find out.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Isn't it only legal in one small section of Nevada? It would be interesting to see just that counties tax revenue's, law enforcement budgets, and crime rates.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote: For starters, much public assistance requires being willing to take a job if offered. Would we exempt prostitution jobs from this requirement? If not, aren't we saying something about prostitution that makes it different from any other job?
Of COURSE it's different. The whole argument for legalizing prostitution is that both parties are actually willing so it shouldn't be illegal. In the situation you describe, where a woman would be forced to take a prostitution job, it is no longer consensual sex, but state-enforced rape. The very definition of legalized prostitution precludes being forced into the job.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: For starters, much public assistance requires being willing to take a job if offered. Would we exempt prostitution jobs from this requirement? If not, aren't we saying something about prostitution that makes it different from any other job?
Wasn't that an issue in Germany a while back? I seem to remember that thread...
Although, public assistance does not generally require that you interview for jobs you are not qualified for or are morally opposed to (such as, say, exotic dancing.) So maybe it wouldn't be an issue-- you won't be offered a job if you don't interview with them?
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I couldn't find anything after just a quick search, but I'd imagine that there must exist some guidelines that spell out when someone on public assistance can pass over a job, be it for physical limitations (heavy lifting, dancing, etc.) or personal, conscientous reasons (working at a gun factory, condom manufacturer, etc).
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote: For starters, much public assistance requires being willing to take a job if offered. Would we exempt prostitution jobs from this requirement? If not, aren't we saying something about prostitution that makes it different from any other job?
Of COURSE it's different. The whole argument for legalizing prostitution is that both parties are actually willing so it shouldn't be illegal. In the situation you describe, where a woman would be forced to take a prostitution job, it is no longer consensual sex, but state-enforced rape. The very definition of legalized prostitution precludes being forced into the job.
I agree it's different. It's this difference that makes the case for making it illegal credible.
quote:Wasn't that an issue in Germany a while back? I seem to remember that thread...
Although, public assistance does not generally require that you interview for jobs you are not qualified for or are morally opposed to (such as, say, exotic dancing.) So maybe it wouldn't be an issue-- you won't be offered a job if you don't interview with them?
Are you sure the exortic dancer thing is the rule? Are we sure it would stay the rule after a generation?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm sure that you don't have to interview for jobs that you are not qualified for or are morally opposed to, or cannot perform for some other reason (like a job that requires heavy lifting and being pregnant or having a medically documented back injury.) And I can't imagine someone just calling up and saying, "do you want this job?" to someone they've never seen, interviewed, or had information on for any other reason. Our system doesn't work quite the way Germany's does; the issue there is that jobs for people on public assistance are all found through the state basically assigning people to go to interviews, as I understand it.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
The thought that "people will still do it illegaly" is like saying we shouldn't explore space because an astranaught could die, its a valid concern yes but it only means we have to be more methodical and cautious about it.
If there were a legalized institution for prostitution then the authorities can spend extra effort cracking down on pimps and bring the street whores to proper medical attention/rehabillitation/etc. the 20$ for a quickie think can infact be done with "Houses" they stay for about 15 minutes then they're gone after paying, if they get belicoise the police are called in and they arrest the john.
If we don't legalize it then those who prostitute themselves will continue to be abused both by police and their pimps/johns, if its legalized and properly regulated then we can eliminate most if not all of the abuse, saving lives people, even 1 life is worthit.
As for Geisha's I read "Memoirs of a Geisha" and I know very well about the misconception, but they're are still "levels" the higher up and refined ones maybe usually escourt services but you still have low rung ones that may very well agree to negotiate a "fee" for a one night stand. But the point stands is that in Japan Geisha's are well respected members of society, with almost nill abuse (malicsious trainers don't count) and make a good profit and is heavily regulated and taxed, supplying a good revenue for the government.
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"Isn't it only legal in one small section of Nevada?" No, its legal in the whole state except Clark and Washoe Counties. Since Nevadans tend to exempt Clark County (Las Vegas) anyway, it is legal in most of the state.
As I said in the edit of an earler post. The taxes collected generally do not cover the cost of enforcement.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:I agree it's different. It's this difference that makes the case for making it illegal credible.
I'm sorry... I just don't see how that follows.
If we say: "Yes, prostitution is legal IF both parties are willing," then I don't see how anyone could be forced to accept the job. So yes, it would be an exception to the "take any job that's offered" rule that public assistance programs have. Since willingness is the most fundamental qualification for a sex-worker to have, any unwilling person is unqualified for the job, anyway.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:If we don't legalize it then those who prostitute themselves will continue to be abused both by police and their pimps/johns, if its legalized and properly regulated then we can eliminate most if not all of the abuse
Do you really think that would happen? I have my doubts. In any case, if it were to become legal, I think it should be decided upon at the state or county level.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Now were debating the finer points/details of it not the fundamental premises of whether or not it should be regulated. Though I'ld imagine if it got beurocratic enough you could say sign a contract saying you'ld be willing to do A, B, and C but request the right to refuse X.
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This thread has me wondering if I'm without morals. Is it terrible that I don't even *care* if anyone/anybody/anygovernment makes money off legalizing prostitution? I guess I just don't see why it's not legal. I mean, people make movies, write books, and other people pay money to watch those movies and read those books. Buyer, seller. Why isn't it okay to sell sexual services, or buy them? I can't think of any way that allowing prostitution to be legal can hurt anyone - besides the obvious possibilities of abuse, which already exist in strip clubs everywhere. Why is stripping and pornography (the fantasy of sex) legal, but services (the reality of sex) aren't?
posted
My Christian friend in his wisedom s against legalizing it because he thinks it wrong, the thing is that if the state legalizes it then it tells the people that its "right" and from their sets the social standard, before the topic got taken away by soemthing else I wasn't able to reply that church and state is separated, right and wrong are reduced to moralities and thus are only bourgoisie superstitions. The family is responsible for teaching basic morals what may or may not be legal is irrelevent, one should have the moral character at the start not to go to a house for a quickie if one is perfectly able to goto a girlfriend instead.
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Space Opera, I don't think you're without morals. I'm a very moral person, and I agree that it should be legal. The important thing is that you don't force morality on other people. I think prostitution is wrong, just like I think that extra-marital sex is wrong. But that doesn't mean I'd stop other people from engaging in those activities.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: It should not only be legalized, but also unionized. Any exploitation of the workers could lead to a widespread labor action.
::torn between making an Aristophanes reference and a pun based on the phrase "labor action"::
::settles for making this post::
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
People who believe something is right because the government has legalized it have pretty deep problems. And I don't mean that sarcastically. The government should never be an entity that sets your morals.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: one should have the moral character at the start not to go to a house for a quickie if one is perfectly able to goto a girlfriend instead.
Is this something you believe, or a belief you think Christians hold? 'Cause maybe I'm wrong, but I think there would be an objection to a quickie with a girlfriend as well...
quote:The family is responsible for teaching basic morals what may or may not be legal is irrelevent, one should have the moral character at the start not to go to a house for a quickie if one is perfectly able to goto a girlfriend instead.
Some of us would say that one shouldn't go to the girlfriend, either, you know.
Edit: Drat you, SO! Beat me to it!
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
How about this... Barring permanent methods, there is no 100% effective method of birth control except abstinence.
If prostitution were legal and a prostitute got pregnant, would her client be legally liable to pay child support?
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
One would say that, no matter what; someway, somehow, someone is paying for it.
Even in truly loving situations there is a price, albeit an easy one to pay...
Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I think that would be settled via contract, maybe her employer will pay her a % during maternal leave to prevent abortions and to encourage her to raise the child.
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I saw an old George Carlin standup last week on HBO, and he addresses this very issue. He basically said, "Well, sex is legal, and selling is legal. Why is sex for free okay but sex for money a crime?"
He said it a little more colorfully. George Carlin doesn't always come out with lucid social commentaries like that anymore, but he still has a gift for putting things in perspective.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Street whores and pimps end up promoting the abuse of individuals, hurt the economy because its untaxable.
I don't think it's a problem of taxation. My problem with prostitution is that I don't know if it doesn't necessarily entail the abuse of individuals. On one hand, it's degrading to disallow a woman the free exercise of her body, on the other, I'm not sure that sex for money is anything other than mutilating.
As it stands, I'm against prostitution, but maybe I just need to meet more well-adjusted prostitutes because the ones I know are a wreck. That's not true, one of them isn't a wreck, but there is still a pervasive sadness and shame in her. _____
For the record, I think that all you guys who are trying to reduce it to an economic problem should be ashamed of yourselves.
______
quote: I'm a very moral person, and I agree that it should be legal. The important thing is that you don't force morality on other people.
Nope, the important thing is having the wisdom to know when, where, how, and if it is appropriate to force your morality on other people. We don't let people sell themselves into slavery here.
posted
Agreed, Katarain, although I would like to know what the provisions would be for a woman who didn't want one. I can easily see a situation where women were forced out of jobs if they wanted to keep the child.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Everything IS a matter of economics, don't be so bourgoisie. They're is serious abuse in this underground industry that could be prevented and I say we must do what we can to make it safe and viable, they're probly plenty of prostitutes that aren't ashamed, without pimps and are making a small fortune, and find it liberating, I say we need to encourage it, what helps the state helps the people.
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I mean, people make movies, write books, and other people pay money to watch those movies and read those books. Buyer, seller. Why isn't it okay to sell sexual services, or buy them? I can't think of any way that allowing prostitution to be legal can hurt anyone - besides the obvious possibilities of abuse, which already exist in strip clubs everywhere. Why is stripping and pornography (the fantasy of sex) legal, but services (the reality of sex) aren't?![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
Some of us would say that one shouldn't go to the girlfriend, either, you know. 
