quote:Originally posted by Icarus: My only point in bringing up that point was to reply to those why question why we have ethnic-pride movements for minorities and not for majorities. I say it's because the minorities feel constantly under attack for their ethnicity, and so they need to turn it into a badge of pride to assert that it is not a mark of shame. I don't believe this need is as strong in members of the dominant culture.
I agree with this to an extent Icarus. However, I can't help but wonder if the formation of racially oriented pride groups furthers the us vs. them mentality. I don't know what the solution is though
As an aside, I agree about an anti-latino bias here in this country, at least from an anecdotal standpoint. My wife is from Argentina. Every time she needs to go to a government office (DMV for example) she always likes me to go along. Why? It's a night and day difference in her experience. When they see that she's with a white guy, they're more helpful and courteous. If she goes by herself she says that it seems like they make it more difficult for her and are even rude at times.
She's been here since age 17 and speaks perfect English (and spells better than I do), and is a very polite person, so I'm pretty certain it's simply racial reasons. As Libbie can attest to, racism hurts on a personal level. It's no wonder that minorities often instinctively band together. Sure there are bigots of all races out there. For the most part though, I think that the whole _______ pride thing can just be attributed to a need to feel good about something that they have been unfairly made to feel terrible about.
Edited to add:
quote:Where do you live? How much money do you make? Those things define what culture you are more a part of than anything having to do with race.
I have to disagree with this. I'm very familiar with parts of both Chinese and Latin American culture and there are genuine differences in many areas. I agree with your point that its not necessarily tied to race, however there are definately unique mindsets and viewpoints of those raised in different cultures.
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quote:In my mind, they are free to stew in their cognitive dissonance and become the fully unoriginal eight gazillionth group in human history to pretend that they're the Master Race and the Master Culture and that they can defend this purity and keep their phenotype and cultural mores static in an ever-changing world. Good luck, fellas. Do pardon me if you don't get any sympathy.
It is awfully difficult to live with one in the family, though. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: My only point in bringing up that point was to reply to those why question why we have ethnic-pride movements for minorities and not for majorities. I say it's because the minorities feel constantly under attack for their ethnicity, and so they need to turn it into a badge of pride to assert that it is not a mark of shame. I don't believe this need is as strong in members of the dominant culture.
I agree with this to an extent Icarus. However, I can't help but wonder if the formation of racially oriented pride groups furthers the us vs. them mentality. I don't know what the solution is though
Only insofar as the "them" in this equation either fears the "others" may be right, and therefore attempts to pre-empt this truth while they have the power to confuse and mislead, or, more likely IMO, our internal I/Other mechanism is being increasingly misapplied in circumstances which back in our species more bloody past was actually an advantage of sorts.
I never said it had NOTHING to do with race. But I think you can find two guys in Detroit, one black one white who have a lot more in commonhood and a lot more brotherhood than you'll find from a Black guy in Detroit and a black guy in Des Moines, or a farm outside Des Moines.
BQT -
For those RAISED in different cultures sure, they bring their culture with them. But how many generations before they meld in with the rest of the national culture?
It goes to the whole melting pot metaphor.
Why is it assumed that racism is always whites being racist towards anyone and everyone else? And why is AA called "reverse racism" as if the term racism was defined as "White hatred of other races?"
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quote:Then the Jews and Arabs, since they are kind of dark
We Jews aren't very dark anymore - centuries in Europe have bleached us. I myself am so fair that I've actually had (stupid) people ask me if I'm an Albino. If I were blonde, I'd be invisible. To be fair, I am half WASP, but my Jewish side is from England and Austria. I've had people tell me that I don't look Jewish, in both highly complimetary and highly derogatory tones.
In my experience, geography and shared experience have played the biggest part of the level of kinship I feel with people. I was discriminated against more in the Northeast for being Southern than I was in the South for being Jewish. I can relate more to black Southern Baptists than I can to white NYC Jews. Andrew and I joke that we have an intercultural marriage because he's from NYC and I'm from Georgia. We were just at a NICU reunion this weekend and it was extremely ethnically diverse (the majority of graduates and families were black, because black preemies do the best). There's a bond between NICU families that transcends any racial, cultural, or religious differences.
I know it can seem bleak, but I think race are getting better. Consider my pediatricians' office - one doctor is a black Christian, one is a white Jew, and the other is a Latina (not sure if she's Christian, I just know she's not Jewish (she was on call for Yom Kippur)). Interestingly, they're all Republican.
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I don't mind the big bigots like the cat described at the beginning of the thread, or kq's brother. They aren't the problem. The problem is the people who deny their existence, and are enablers by omission. As I see it, the capital "B" Bigots are products of America. They went to American schools, succeed in American life, go to American churches, and are active in our American communities. The question that everyone else should be asking is how such a person can be the product of our society and institutions, and to what extent does the seed that came in full flower in the body of the Bigot live in our other institutions. Those are the real issues.
I more white people took serious ownership of this issue, I think the whole of society would improve for the bargain.
I read a quote by guy named Neely Fuller, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me, ""If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism) What it is, and how it works everything else that you understand, will only confuse you."
There is a bit of truth there.
_______
I'll lay the second problem out like this: as it stands, America is like the white side of a chessboard, we have pawns, knights, rooks, queens, and then we have the king, and the king, in cahoots with a few other pieces, is telling the people that all the pieces are equal, and further, and if the pawns tried a little bit harder, they could capture as many other pieces and move as freely as the Queen. When the other pieces point out how they all aren't allowed to move equally, the king points out that lucky pawn who makes it to the other side of the board and becomes a queen to show how fair the game is. And if things ever get really bad, the king says, "Look, just play the damn game, we are all on the same team, all of this infighting will only lead to the other side winning. Once the game is over, then take it up with me. Instead of wasting all of this energy yakking, you could have ended up like the little pawn who made it across the board and became a queen."
Then, after the pawns see all of their fellow pawns get taken, they start asking such inopportune questions like, "Why are we playing chess instead of checkers?" "Who decided this game, anyway?" "What if I don't want to play?" "What'll happen if I try to move like the knight moves(jail)?"
I'm done riffing. I hope I made my point clearly and artfully, but if you get anything else out of this post, know that I find Neely Fuller's quote strangely and deeply profound. You can dismiss my opinion outright in this regard, but since I'm one of the few black guys on this forum, maybe that wouldn't be the wisest thing. Fuller also said, which is more true than false, that the first priority for an African American is to figure out what to do with the white man's foot on his neck. And if that's the only thing accomplished in life before dying, that's fine. __________
I imagine that some people will read this and think me a racist. I'm not going to deny it. I don't buy the whole melting pot business. I like a salad, where the lettuce is distinct from the cucumber, which doesn't taste like the carrots or tomatoes. Furthermore, I think that there is much more to learn for the good of the Union, if we take time to think about the origin of our differences rather than pretend everyone is the same.
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Funny, saying the problem is "the white man" doesn't seem very accepting or understanding of the differences among white men to me.
If you think all white men are the same, and they are all keeping you down, I have trouble understanding how you could villify some white men for thinking black culture is all the same, and all negative.
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Icarus, just letting you know I haven't forgotten about this thread or the posts we traded back and forth. It's grown a bit, and I'm not sure if I want to address everything else here-I'll address yours tomorrow though:) If you say that you are a member (not necessarily card-carrying, if there is such a thing) of a -pride movement, and don't assign any superiority to it, then I'll take you at your word.
As a rule, though, I tend to think that quite a few Hatrackers are more aware of these sorts of soul-searching issues and less likely to be 'normal' about them. I think your point about -pride movements being in response to racism, or even just cultural pressure (the cultural pressure does not necessarily mean racism-Friends is not necessarily racist, but there is certainly a lot of fantasy expressing cultural pressure, for example) is a good one.
I just think it would be difficult, very difficult, for most people to think that their way of life isn't better than other people's way of life, even if they don't want to force that way of life on them, or oppress other people based upon it.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: okay...how about otherwise intelligent.
What I meant was that if you got to talk about any other subject (ones not touching on a few issues), you wouldn't right them off as disgruntled, low-earning-potential, Caucasian losers with limited mental acuity, glomming onto the white-power movement out of frustration for their lot in life.
(I'm a current student in an introductory psych class, so I am not expert, and that may make my theories dangerously inept, as I claim some small knowledge. )
This may in fact be exactly how most white supremacists present themselves. People are genetically predisposed to join "white power" movements (and this, according to my proff, has been studied), due to a tendency towards uncontrolled agression, and low intelligence, or strength of impulse control. Basically, according to a lecture I heard, today in fact, many studies of children based solely on genetic factors (adopted children raised in totally seperate environments), show that some people are very strongly predisposed towards niche finding, and gangs. For instance, identical twins raised in seperate adopted households are likely to seek similar careers, and if one becomes a white supremacist, the other is FAR more likely to be one as well. These people are not ALWAYS of low intelligence, but low intelligence IS a positive indicator for joining hate groups. The connection cannot be proved to be causal, but it does exist as a positive indicator- so those of low intelligence are far more likely to become white supremacists.
A very intelligent person may develop entirely unique reasons for becoming a white supremacist, but the process is likely to be completely different intellectually, and would rely on entirely different genetic factors. This is kind of like a football jock and a music buff both ending up as consultants at an architecture firm: it happens ALL the time, but both types in the population have DIFFERENT positive indicators for doing what they do. People of low intelligence have a positive indicator towards joing hate groups, but that proves nothing causal, and doesn't preclude others joining for other reasons. Nevertheless, the connection is valid within limitations.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Icarus, just letting you know I haven't forgotten about this thread or the posts we traded back and forth. It's grown a bit, and I'm not sure if I want to address everything else here-I'll address yours tomorrow though:) If you say that you are a member (not necessarily card-carrying, if there is such a thing) of a -pride movement, and don't assign any superiority to it, then I'll take you at your word.
As a rule, though, I tend to think that quite a few Hatrackers are more aware of these sorts of soul-searching issues and less likely to be 'normal' about them. I think your point about -pride movements being in response to racism, or even just cultural pressure (the cultural pressure does not necessarily mean racism-Friends is not necessarily racist, but there is certainly a lot of fantasy expressing cultural pressure, for example) is a good one.
I just think it would be difficult, very difficult, for most people to think that their way of life isn't better than other people's way of life, even if they don't want to force that way of life on them, or oppress other people based upon it.
How can "Friends" possibly be racist just because the cast is all white? (to say nothing of the fact that two of the characters are Jewish, and one is Italian, which is more Latin than Caucasian). Does that mean the same level of capable racism is there for "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire?" After all, Will does make an awful lot of jokes about Carlton being white, and how un-black and uncool that makes him.
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*shrug* I don't think Friends is racist, but I also don't think the charge is ridiculous what with its presentation of a whitewashed New York City.
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Friends takes place in Greenwich Village, and the Greenwich Village/SoHo area is 67% white. Thus, more than six in ten people in that area are white, six friends on the show...the six main characters are within the statistical norm for race.
One third of the people in that same area are foreign born. Joey identifies strongly with his Italian heritage (of which his grandmother and parents are evidenced as being foreign born), and Gunther I believe is Dutch (and speaks the language fluently). While that isn't a third, I think it's within a statistical margin of error.
Pretending that all of New York is equally diverse is just as misleading as what you're accusing the show of. As a city in its entirety, it is diverse, but that diversity is NOT so rampant when you look individually at the burroughs, and this show takes place almost exclusively in one, primarily white, affluent part of the city. To say nothing of the fact that it IS NOT trying to depict an accurate representation of the cultural diversity of New York City, I'd be more upset at the misreprensentation of the city by a show that IS claiming to accurately portray it.
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Dude, I'm in Greenwich Village. It might be officially 67% white, though I'd love to see where you got that number from, but there are a lot more people here than simply those who rent apartments here. An entire corner of Washington Square Park is dedicated to black hustlers who come in from Jersey or Brooklyn, and largely thanks to NYU, Indians are everywhere. Most of the working class is Puerto Rican, and the majority of street performers are blacks and Italians.
That said, no, I don't think Friends was racist because it was all white people -- that's, if anything, realistic. Races tend to run apart from one another, a rule minorities obey more strictly than whites do. If the show's considered racist, it's probably because guilty whites enjoyed the show and felt bad about not missing the wacky black comic relief or struggling Latino drug dealer. It might appeal to closet racists (which is... everyone), but that's more because Ross and Rachel lived in a utopia without homeless blacks harassing them for money, or hustling their rap CDs and candy, or running around in gangs leering at Jennifer Aniston. Italians were lovable dopes, not break-dancing guidos spoiling for a fight. Jews were befuddled ladies' men, not spoiled princesses. If anything, the show worked toward racial unity by refusing to push racial stereotypes -- save your outrage for The Parkers and its ilk.
I'm still not sure why Friends got so much attention in a world with Arrested Development, though...
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For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Now the amount of cultural influence and wealth generated by pandering to and buttressing the Friends niche may be considered an example of a racist system in action.
Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
Mrs.M:
quote:In my experience, geography and shared experience have played the biggest part of the level of kinship I feel with people. I was discriminated against more in the Northeast for being Southern than I was in the South for being Jewish. I can relate more to black Southern Baptists than I can to white NYC Jews. Andrew and I joke that we have an intercultural marriage because he's from NYC and I'm from Georgia. We were just at a NICU reunion this weekend and it was extremely ethnically diverse (the majority of graduates and families were black, because black preemies do the best). There's a bond between NICU families that transcends any racial, cultural, or religious differences.
I'm still going to guess that your daughter has a better chance of marrying a Jew than marrying another NICU baby.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: For those RAISED in different cultures sure, they bring their culture with them. But how many generations before they meld in with the rest of the national culture?
It goes to the whole melting pot metaphor.
This kind of goes with my whole feeling that although the creation of pride groups is definately an understandable reaction, it may do more harm than good. As Bokonon pointed out (I think, if I'm wrong then feel free to correct me) a lot of this may be a result of tribal instincts from our past. Undesirable it may be, but it's the reality of the world right now, which is why I feel the intentional grouping may do more harm then good.
Sorry Lyrhawn, I'm getting what you said. The whole melting pot process doesn't work as well if communities deliberately isolate themselves by forming these groups. Many of the attributes of the culture they came from don't help or are even harmful in this society. Yet the group holds on to them, because it helps them band together and is part of their unique identity.
For example, education does not seem to be a central value in Latin American cultures. Lower test scores and college graduation numbers are somewhat indicative of this. This is unfortunate in the U.S. because there is a strong correlation between education level and income. I respectfully disagree with those that state that it's just the foot of the majority on their neck.
In contrast, education is supremely important to Asian Americans. They consistantly outperform not only other minorities, but also the white majority in tests and college enrollment-even at lower socioeconomical levels than their peers.
I do like Irami's whole salad analogy because it allows you to pick the best parts of everything and create something better, yet each piece still retains its own flavor. Core the lettuce, peel the cucumber, cut the top off the carrot to get rid of less desirable parts. Taking the best part of each culture would make this the best place to live in the world.
Note: I know I made some broad generalizations about cultures. There are of course numerous exceptions. I hope I haven't offended.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Does that mean the same level of capable racism is there for "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire?" After all, Will does make an awful lot of jokes about Carlton being white, and how un-black and uncool that makes him.
That's not racism, Lyrhawn. Didn't you hear? If it's against white people, it can't be racist.
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I got it from the census bureau. The show takes place indoors almost in its entirety, I don't know why everything has to be a social commentary (partially to Irami).
Irami -
I really don't get it. All black shows don't deal with race on a regular basis. Family Matters had maybe a half dozen white guest characters every couple episodes, and I can think of two episodes off the top of my head, from a nine year running show, that dealt with racism. Same story with a lot of other shows that have all black casts. Are all these shows part of white culture alone?
Lisa -
Yeah, I've heard that joke before. I still react with a mixture of amusement and anger.
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quote:I'm still going to guess that your daughter has a better chance of marrying a Jew than marrying another NICU baby.
Probably. There are more Jews than there are NICU babies (although there are 3 former NICU babies in our shul). BTW, Black/Jewish relations are better and closer in the South than they are elsewhere (certainly more so than in NYC, from what I saw). This is largely due to the years of fighting together for civil rights.
I was just thinking about how my in-laws are the opposite of white supremacists. They're ultra-left-wing liberals. My MIL was thrilled to learn that our pediatrician is black, which bothered me. She didn't seem to care about his credentials, which are why we chose him. Just his race. Then we told her that he's a Republican and she hasn't been the same since.
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My boss (faculty at prestigious campus) heard me always talking about how brilliant one of the other grad students in another lab was. Since he didn't know the man, he decided to look up his pics (pics of grad students are distributed to faculty) and was like, hey, he is black. It is so good to see a black student succeeding. And I was like, um, not quite sure how to respond to that.
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quote: For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Aaaaaaand... if that's true, I'm so gonna check the "Other" box from now on. Those three shows make me want to puke.
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: We were just at a NICU reunion this weekend and it was extremely ethnically diverse (the majority of graduates and families were black, because black preemies do the best).
There may also be some cultural differences in who maintains contact with and attends the NICU graduation reunions. I think (think, not sure) that most babies who enter NICU will survive*** -- although there may be significant disability, deaths are pretty rare in the NICU and then less rare stil in the childhood years afterward.
Given that (I think) most babies in NICUs are identified as "white" for data-collecting purposes (the rates of prematurity for "visible minorities" may be higher, but -- I think-- the actual numbers are not, at least not yet), it's more likely that there are a lot of "white" NICU grads that aren't attending the reunions you have attended, for whatever reason.
Or maybe there is an unusually distributed census at your center, or possibly there is a much higher death rate than the national norm. Who knows? Not really important to the discussion at hand, just an aside. I also don't want to leave the impression that if your baby is "white" and ends up in the NICU, it's likely to die -- even though it may be at increased risk for longterm developmental and medical concerns when compared to "black" female preemies, I think survival is more the norm for all of them than not.
[/aside]
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***Edited to add: Refer to, e.g., this article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal which summarizes the mortality rates for all infants admitted to Canadian NICUs from 1996-1997. There there was a 4% mortality rate: i.e., out of a total of 19,265 infants admitted, there were 795 deaths.
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That's cool, you're free to. However, I believe it was a single direct generalization not generalizations. I apologize if I offended, it was not intended to be so. I was tempted to include another generalization about the positive importance of family in latino culture, but it didn't really add much to my point and would have been in there just for balance. I generally try to avoid doing that. Would you be interested in participating in a thread about this subject?
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Irami- You might convince more people if you talked in concrete terms about how blacks are oppressed in America today, and what whites can do to change things.
I understand that blacks are oppressed in America; but it doesn't seem like there is much I can do about it. What do you see individual white Americans doing to end racism in America?
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erm, participate in a thread wherein I defend my culture from negative claims about it? No, doesn't sound like fun, actually.
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We've already established that he is a big racist. We've already established that he is a bright guy. If you do no other thing, try to figure out how this guy got through, and most probably excelled in, his public and private education and at his current job, while at the same time becoming the quality of character that he is, and figure out what kind of priorities these institutions espouse such that his untoward tendencies have not only been ill-addressed, but they seem to have been nurtured.
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I am trying to think of something more superficial than one's skin color to have pride in, but it is difficult.
Am I allowed to have People-With-A-Middle-Name-That-Starts-With-W Pride? We are pretty elite after all. We even have the President in our ranks! (Note: please understand that we don't "look down on" those of you with middle names beginning with other letters; we just happen to possess an awesomeness that you can't ever have. ) Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:posted by quidscribis: [derail] Y'all know that swastikas are important symbols in Buddhism and have been for thousands of years, right? [/derail]
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: For example, education does not seem to be a central value in Latin American cultures. Lower test scores and college graduation numbers are somewhat indicative of this. This is unfortunate in the U.S. because there is a strong correlation between education level and income. I respectfully disagree with those that state that it's just the foot of the majority on their neck.
In contrast, education is supremely important to Asian Americans. They consistantly outperform not only other minorities, but also the white majority in tests and college enrollment-even at lower socioeconomical levels than their peers.
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: BaoQingTian, I disagree with your generalizations regarding latino culture.
To be fair, you can both be right. I don't think there's a question that Asians value education more than Latinos do -- but that's Latinos on the whole. You're Cuban, and as a general rule, Cubans score much higher than other Latin ethnicities do.
I know, looking at Florida, I wouldn't have expected it either...
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I am trying to think of something more superficial than one's skin color to have pride in, but it is difficult.
Am I allowed to have People-With-A-Middle-Name-That-Starts-With-W Pride? We are pretty elite after all. We even have the President in our ranks! (Note: please understand that we don't "look down on" those of you with middle names beginning with other letters; we just happen to possess an awesomeness that you can't ever have. )
There's a Facebook group called the Pearce Appreciation Society.
Clearly, Pearces are discriminated against by the rest of the population who can't spell or pronounce our names correctly.
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Now the amount of cultural influence and wealth generated by pandering to and buttressing the Friends niche may be considered an example of a racist system in action.
Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
And is a "culturally white" show a bad thing?
Actually, I'm kinda offended on behalf of all minorities. One of my biggest issues with the George Lopez show (who is, I should add, one of the greatest Mexican comedians of all time) was how desperately important it was to contrast his wacky Mexican background to his white neighbors. It works great as a comedy routine, but in a sitcom emulating real life, it comes off as just another blackface bit. He's a man, not a Mexican -- and people like you who force him to be the latter at the cost of the former rob all minorities of their dignity. Friends and Gilmore Girls focus on comedy and drama, with white characters. Do you really think blacks can't be funny or dramatic without "acting white"? Can educated blacks talk well without "talking white"?
Jose and I are both Latinos, him to a greater extent than I -- and while it's a great background to have and definitely influences some parts of our lives, I don't think either of us let it define us. Maybe I feel more relaxed around minorities than some of my white friends are, and I have no fear of cracking racial jokes amongst friends, but it's not so much an issue that I feel insulted every time someone mentions, gasp, race and doesn't make a display of pity for me.
If you grew up in a racist area, man, I'm sorry. But you don't need to be the black guy forever -- whether you know it or not, to most other people, you're just a guy. Yeah, I know, cops probably push you around, and you probably have more trouble getting bank loans, but nobody here thinks you're somehow lesser for your color. That Friends focused on white characters and used witty humor doesn't make it exclusive to any one race, any more than Arrested Development or The George Lopez Show were.
And Lyrhawn's right about black sitcoms. Since the eighties, most have made a point to exclude any non-black characters and caricature black stereotypes -- if you're going to pretend insult, look at The Parkers or, well, any show on UPN. The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air's primary audience was white, if you'll remember -- somehow, white people managed to overcome their distaste for a sitcom with a different race. Can't you?
The Boondocks is the only show I've seen with even vague respect for the black intellect, and it's a damn shame so few people watch it. For so long as you think intelligent humor is white, you're going to continue the trend of Barbershop-type crap that paints the black race as ignorant, stupid, and shallow. Have some self-respect, dude, or you'll never see a genuinely insightful drama with black characters without their relegation to your approved stereotypes as only black characters.
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quote:posted by quidscribis: [derail] Y'all know that swastikas are important symbols in Buddhism and have been for thousands of years, right? [/derail]
Um. While I recognize that Wikipedia is not a perfect source of information, it still can be a good source. Check out their page on swastikas. In Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, it can and has been used with the spokes rotating in either direction, and while usually used with the swastika horizontal, can also be used with it diagonal. So, um...
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While I was aware that that the spokes could go either way, I didn't know that even the traditional swastika could be rotated.
To be fair though, the only time that the article specifically mentioned a rotated swastika - aside from nazi-related instances - was regarding Russian bank notes in 1917. Actually, I suppose that's sort of nazi-related, since the article speculated it was the basis for the nazi design. It also included a picture of a rotated swastika that, according to the caption, was based on a flag adopted in 1925, even though the flag itself does not bear a rotated swastika. It's pretty clear that the swastika, when used in its tradition sense, is depicted horizontally.
Because, if someone didn't know that swastikas were a common symbol of well-being, peace, intelligence, strength, or a bunch of other things, it might be useful for them to know that the symbol is generally constructed horizontally. As opposed to the nazi symbol, which never is, as far as I know.
Hence I use the word Manji to denote the positive symbol since "swastika" has a whole mess of negative connotation attatched to it, technically accurate as it may be.
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I think there's a bit of a selection issue going on. Saying that latinos don't, as a culture, value education, is about as accurate as saying that blacks are not law-abiding. Both of these are characteristic of low socio-economic status, and latinos and blacks are more highly represented among the lower socio-economic sttus, for a variety of reasons, quite a few of which are external. So, while statistics would be on your side in making both claims, I do not believe either tells the whole story.
From my perspective, it is a centerpiece of latino culture that latinos value education extremely highly and show more respect for educators and educated people than is the norm. In fact, I have found this to be extremely useful when dealing with the parents of my latino students. I just say, wistfully, gee, I have always been proud of how highly we latinos value education, but Juanito's behavior would indicate I'm wrong about that. Maybe it's a generational thing . . . And you should see the parents jump all over themselves to assert that I am not mistaken, that they do value education, and you should see how they get on their kids' cases.
Frankly, I do not think the generalization about Asians is correct either, for similar reasons. Beyond the socioeconomic status of an immigrant group in America, you have to look at the socioeconomic status the immigrant group enjoyed in its home country. For instance, I have heard the educational distinction between Cubans and Mexicans pointed out before, but I do not think it's a fair one, because the first wave of Cuban political refugees were those who had the financial wherewithall to escape, and while they were not uniformly rich, they were, as a group, not poor either. Mexicans, it is m understanding, are more likely to be immigrating for economic reasons, and more of them were poor over there as well. So I don't think it's intrinsic to Cuban culture to value education more or intrinsic to Mexican culture to value education less. Similarly, the trip from Asia to America is a long one, and those who make the trip in the twentieth century are likely to have been wealthier back home than the norm. It's not a matter of sneaking across a fluid border. I have read a lot about Japan that would indicate that education is very highly valued there, across the culture, but I'm not sure the same can be said for all Asians. I have spoken to people who spent a year in Korea or Thailand teaching English, and they report that they find it different from our preconceptions about Asia.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Juxtapose, I hear what you're saying, completely and totally.
Wikipedia is as limited as its writers are, so it's not surprising that it has gaps. The first time I checked out the entry for Canada, it was a total of 14 sections and I found many, many errors and omissions - it was laughable. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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They tend to make white people in shows and sitcoms look shallow and stupid too. I reckon it's a television thing more than anything else. Any group looks ridiculous on television. Is it any wonder people's perceptions are so narrow? Race frustrates me. It's a neverending argument. I can't understand it...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:For the record, I don't think that Friends was racist. I think Friends was white, and 7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls are all different sides of the same white D&D die.
Now the amount of cultural influence and wealth generated by pandering to and buttressing the Friends niche may be considered an example of a racist system in action.
Anytime you get a group of people living in America and race isn't an issue, then you are probably dealing with a culturally white show.
is consistent with what Lalo said here:
quote:The Boondocks is the only show I've seen with even vague respect for the black intellect, and it's a damn shame so few people watch it.
I haven't seen Boondocks, but I've read the comic. If we are going to talk about shows I've seen, I'd say "The Wire" does a good job, and I think that Friday Night Lights is shaping up in the same way. But notice, on both of those shows, race is right up there in the forefront of discussion and thought.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Juxtapose, I hear what you're saying, completely and totally. [Smile]
Wikipedia is as limited as its writers are, so it's not surprising that it has gaps. The first time I checked out the entry for Canada, it was a total of 14 sections and I found many, many errors and omissions - it was laughable. [Smile]
Yay! Agreement on both counts. Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Icarus- I was telling an Indian friend of mine about an Indian girl I knew in high school who always complained about affirmative action in India. She always said that while the caste system was a problem in the past, it wasn't anymore, and she shouldn't have fewer opportunities than lower caste teenagers did. He just looked at me and pointed out, "She was in the US."
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Um, while the caste system officially doesn't exist, it still does and it is still a problem. Not as much as it was historically, and not as overtly all the time, but still.
It also exists in Sri Lanka, although here it usually goes under the guise of status (except when it's arranged marriage time - then it's definitely caste, as in Govi Buddhist and such). It's unspoken, but it's constantly there, and everyone evaluates everyone else for their status and how they should treat them accordingly.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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The caste system in India, as I understand it, is supremely important. Light skin is the standard for beauty, and darker Indians are generally relegated to menial labor and prostitution. There was an article maybe a year ago about a ghetto of Indian "untouchables" who were terrorized by a man who'd had every woman and girl in the neighborhood gang-raped many times, to keep their families under control. If they went to the police, the police would rape them again and send them on their way. Finally, when the man was walking out of a courthouse (I believe he'd just had another set of charges against him dismissed), a gang of these women descended on him with kitchen knives and bare hands, and tore him apart. The only reason why it was news at all is not because of the man's brutality, but because their response existed at all. It was something akin to a slave revolt.
It's not a subtle thing at all. India's an amazing country, but my god, it needs social reforms on a stunningly massive scale.
Of course, it also goes without saying that the darker Indians are also way hotter than their light-skinned counterparts. I don't see what the big deal is about Aishwaria Arai, or whatever her name is -- I've seen Indian women who outclass her here on NYC streets. If nothing else sparks an outcry for reform...
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Y'all watch Grey's Anatomy? It isn't about race. Race is almost never mentioned. It's about hot doctors who all sleep with each other.
Also, the chief of surgery, the next in line, and the boss of the interns are all black. One is female. The women are not all tall and thin with different colors of hair to distinguish them, but they are honestly all different in frame and race and body type and I LOVE that.
It's a fluffy, soapy show, but it's also fun and occasionally clever. And it isn't even close to lily-white. Only about half of the main characters are white.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Am I the only one who had a hard time thinking that Teal'c is black? I mean, he's clearly a Jaffa!
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Not really important to the discussion at hand, just an aside. I also don't want to leave the impression that if your baby is "white" and ends up in the NICU, it's likely to die -- even though it may be at increased risk for longterm developmental and medical concerns when compared to "black" female preemies, I think survival is more the norm for all of them than not.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
