posted
Oh, I get it. Limbaugh. Rush. Duh, only took me 7 times. Yeah, I don't get him. The only time I honestly tried to listen to him, he told his listeners to turn down the radio and then told a joke so filthy, and my brothers were like "we thought he was just kidding about turning down the radio." So he totally lost my respect as any kind of guardian of decency, which he was supposedly trying to be. Anyway, I only read the first post and I probably won't be back to read anymore, but here's a hug for (((Hatrack)))
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quote: Most head coaches are brought up through the coaching staffs of teams or are hired out of head coaching positions from College teams.
Gee, I wonder why there aren't more black college coaches.
quote: When Notre Dame and Michigan State played in September 2002, Tyrone Willingham (ND) and Bobby Wilson (MS) were only two of four black head coaches at the 117 major college football schools. Fritz Hill at San Jose State and New Mexico State coach Tony Samuel are the other two.
A USA TODAY examination of Division I-A coaching staffs reveals little reason to anticipate a significant change any time soon among major college head coaches. More than 43% of players at that level are African-Amercan, but there are only four head coaches. The 117 schools listed only 12 African- Americans as coordinators--assistant coaches in charge of offensive or defensive units.
quote: The unprecedented data presented in this report proves what we‘ve known anecdotally for years–that black coaches face higher hurdles in becoming head coaches in the NFL and are held to a higher standard when hired,“ said Cyrus Mehri, of Mehri & Skalet, PLLC, a leading civil rights and employment discrimination law firm that prepared the report. —These inequities in hiring practices are serious and we think are worthy of the NFL‘s attention,“ said Mehri.
quote: Black Coaches won 1.1 more wins per year than white coaches. • Black Coaches made the playoffs 67% of the time versus 39% for white coaches. • In their first season, Black Coaches average 2.7 wins more than white coaches. • Terminated Black coaches won an average of 1.3 more games than white counterparts (in their terminated season).
But black coaches are not rewarded for their superior performance and often find themselves the victims of a —quick hook.“ Art Shell was fired after two straight winning seasons. Ray Rhodes was given one season in Green Bay. Tony Dungy was fired after transforming the Tampa Bay Bucs into a playoff contender.
Sop, you said, " And yes, there have been a number of successful black coaches."
I beg to differ.
quote: Since Art Shell became the first black head coach of the modern era with the Raiders in 1989, there have been five: Dungy, Edwards, Shell, Dennis Green and Ray Rhodes. Terry Robiskie was an interim coach with Washington for three games in 2000. There have never been more than three black head coaches in a season.
While Rush Limbaugh is not a racist for the reasons murdok states, he is a racist in this context. Lets say I say "Jews cheat on exams, therefore we shouldn't accept Jews at harvard university," (yes, this happened) and then someone says to me "But so do christians, so by your logic we shouldn't accept christians either," and I say "don't change the subject," I'm being anti-semitic... because I recognize a flaw and take action against it, in Jews, but not in other peoples. Likewise, what Limbaugh is seeing is a reaction that sports commentators have to successful quarterbacks... they over value the quarterback because the team is successful. Limbaugh sees this, in fact, he comments that McNabb is being given extra credit because the Eagles have gotten so much better in recent years, that Limbaugh does not think is due to McNabb. The same exact phenomenon has happened with Tom Brady... he's not REALLY a fantastic quarterback. He's good, but not great. Same deal with McNabb... he's good, and can run AND throw the ball, but John Elway he is not. So, because commentators overvalue McNabb, Limbaugh, because of his political orientations, says that he's overvalued because of his race... when in actuality, McNabb is part of the subset of quarterbacks who are good, but lead teams that are either great, or become significantly better then they were, for which the quarterback is labeled as "Great" by sports commentators. So, I do see these comments by Limbaugh as racist... because he plays the race card, when the explanation for why McNabb is overvalued by the media can be seen by the way the media does exactly the same thing with white quarterbacks in similar team circumstances.
And...
If I am right, and quarterbacks on good teams get overrated, and its a given that McNabb is overhyped by sports broadcasters, and its a given that the eagles are a better team since mcnabb has been playing for them, then rush is being racist by choosing to focus on mcnabb being black and overrated, when all other quarterbacks in his position, regardless of race are hyped as mcnabb as. For a perfect example of the type of quarterback I mean, think about Tom Brady. Anyrate, if all quarterbacks in group A are all overrated, McNabb is in group A, then McNabb is overrated because he fits the characteristics of group A. In other words, if Rush wants to say that McNabb is overrated for other reasons, he has to prove that McNabb fits the criteria for being overrated for being in a group that is NOT group A. Instead, Rush chose to say McNabb is overrated because he fits criteria B, without mentioning the fact he is also part of group A. He's excluding a possibility, because it doesn't meet his premises, which is that the media is rascist and so wants to see a black quarterback suceed. By doing so, by not mentioning the group to which McNabb belongs, and which provides the explanation for McNabb being overrated, and choosing to instead focus on McNabb's race, he is being racist by exclusion. However, I can't be sure of this, because no one has asked him about white quarterbacks who are also overrated. Rush could have escaped this fire by saying "McNabb is singled out of special hype above and beyond what quarterbacks on good teams normally get because sports broadcasters want to see a black quarterback do well," thus acknowledgeing that McNabb is hyped for reasons other then his race.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Rush's comments were definitely racially insensitive but they were neither racist nor necessarily incorrect. Personally, I don't agree but its entirely an opinion for an individual. Basically he thinks a sort of affirmative action is being taken by the media. The fact that he believes this has earned him a resignation.
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posted
Excellent research Kayla and I honestly thought there were more black coaches in the pro football ranks. Perhaps it's just a matter that those who were there stood out more than other coaches in my mind.
On the college level, well, college is a whole different ball game and I really don't follow college football. Pro football and college basketball are my personal choices.
Art Shell is the one that stood out in my mind the most for his success. But when you coach for the Raiders, you work for an evil genius and things can be really, really strange there. Shell's firing still makes one scratch their head.
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posted
I have to say I don't think Limbaugh's comment was meant against blacks. He was speaking against liberal media bias.
This is a tricky thing to say. I don't like Limbaugh, and I can't think of a single thing he's said I agree with. But media bias is obvious to anyone who works for it or reads/watches it carefully. Where I disagree with Limbaugh is that he believes the liberals have taken over. Me, I think the capitalists have. Media, especially mass-market media, will always go for the story or picture or video that will get the most viewers, i.e. generate the largest advertising audience or tastiest demographics. If stories about minorities succeeding get more ratings, you'll see more stories about minorities succeeding. Simple as that. It's not a racial thing, it's a money thing.
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posted
You scooped me, AJ[edit:among others.] E! just had a banner that said Rush resigned from ESPN and refused to apologize for his remarks.
As far as "dittoheads" goes, I've often heard Rush listener's portray themselves as "dittoheads" on his show. "I'm a long-time dittohead, first-time caller, Rush." and "Megadittos, Rush!" Sheep.
posted
I don't really know what I think about the remark specifically. I agree it was relatively mild, and I'm very surprised that anyone is surprised that Rush said it. Not because Rush is inherently racist, but because he is inherently controversial. I thought that was why ESPN hired him, to create controversy and add "flair" of a sort. I think Rush resigning was also extreme.
As some one who has listened to Rush, the term Dittohead was coined by a caller. He had just heard the caller before tell Rush how much he enjoyed the show and this guy started out by saying "Ditto what the guy before said." This lead to Rush telling people to say Ditto about any compliments and to just get to the point. The purpose was to get by the usual "Love your show, long time listener, first time caller" stuff that most caller say when they first talk to the host. It grew from there.
Just becuase someone says Ditto, does not mean that they agree with all that Rush says.
McNabb in No Hurry to Get Apology from Limbaugh Thu Oct 2, 3:04 AM ET Add U.S. National - Reuters to My Yahoo!
PHILADEPHIA (Reuters) - Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb (news) has said that he was not interested in an apology from television analyst Rush Limbaugh who made controversial comments about him on Sunday.
Reuters Photo
Limbaugh, who joined ESPN's Sunday morning NFL pre-game show coverage this season, said McNabb was not "as good as everyone says he has been" and that "the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well."
The comments sparked raging debate in many areas of the United States primarily due to the racial implications involved. Limbaugh, a conservative syndicated radio commentator, resigned from the ESPN job late Wednesday.
"An apology would do no good because he obviously thought about it before he said it," McNabb told a news conference on Wednesday.
"He said what he said. I'm sure he's not the only one that feels that way but it's somewhat shocking to actually hear that on national TV."
At the conference, McNabb said the race comments were uncalled for and sent a poor message to young African-Americans about how they are perceived.
"It's pretty heavy, something obviously that I've been going through since I was young," McNabb said.
"You figured it would have been over by now.
"When you sit there and pinpoint a guy because of the color of his skin, and not really pretty much on his performance or the things he's been able to do while he's been in the league, that kind of makes you look like you're the bad guy."
quote:it's somewhat shocking to actually hear that on national TV.
That's how I feel about it, too. From a certain point of view (Rush's I guess), the opinion was on the lighter side of the intolerance spectrum. He wasn't wearing a white hood when he said it or anything.
But it's incredibly insensitive, personally insulting to McNabb, and just all around stupid. Even if he really *did* think that McNabb's success was born of affirmative action-styled media coverage, there's just no point in saying it on national TV.
He wouldn't have mentioned it at all if he didn't think there was some amount of injustice involved in McNabb's perceived success. Of course I completely disagree with that, too, but the point is that the NFL is a wholly inappropriate place for Limbaugh to be waging his war against affirmative action.
posted
If a Black player said, "White people just can't play football as well as us," no one would notice and no one would care. You can argue all you want that McNabb is that good but his comments weren't racist. It really isn't any more than saying Babe Ruth was a better homerun hitter than Hank Aaron. I could say that Aaron was better because he hit more homeruns but that doesn't make the statement any more than an opinion and one which should be acceptable.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
McNabb is not under-rated, he just is in a slump. It happens to everyone. For those who think he's not that good, go back and watch some games from last season, and especially the season before. Or you can just watch him next Sunday.
He was able to basically create an offense out of nothing. He's usually the leading rusher on the Eagles along with being one of the most highly rated QBs in the league. He's smart, big, fast, and can make plays.
As far as a bias, I think that's pretty silly. McNabb is not the first good black quarterback, in fact he's not even the first to play for the Eagles!
If there is a bias, its because McNabb is a really great guy, a media darling. Last year he donated over $100,000 to Syracuse athletics for some new renovations. He gives good interviews, and he's one of the most exciting players to watch in recent years. I'd love to hear Rush's thoughts on Vick.
Anyway, I'm not sure if the man was racist in his comment, but certainly it was stupid and just plain wrong.
(BTW, I think Elway is one of the most over-rated players in history. Terrel Davis and the other 10 pro-bowlers on each of the Denver superbowl teams made him look far better than he was.)
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posted
Ahh, so in prior years when the broncos fielded crap, elway looked good because he was surrounded by other pro-bowlers...?
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posted
Look, Rush was brought onto ESPN to be controversial...about football, and he was. His comments were about football and only football. If a presidential candidate said the Cinncinate Bengals were going to win the Super Bowl we wouldn't, or at least shouldn't, not elect him because of it. People are making a huge deal out of the fact that Rush has the wrong opinion about football.
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posted
Rush is hardly a racist. He's a moron sometimes, an ideologue all the time, but he is by no means racist. The black commentators that sit in for him when he's on vacation would probably confirm what I'm saying.
None of which means he couldn't have approached this question differently. I think he really believes that what he asserts is true about the media's treatment of McNab genuinely is a fair assessment of the situation. Unfortunately for him, his overblown style allows for no measured, neutral discussion of his views, so he comes off as racially insensitive.
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quote: "Why should Blacks be heard? They're 12% of the population. Who the hell cares."
quote: "Have you ever noticed how all newspaper composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"
quote: Spike Lee urged that black schoolchildren be given time off from school to see his film "Malcolm X": "Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out."
quote: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."
quote:"If we are going to start rewarding no skills and stupid people--I'm serious, let the unskilled jobs that take absolutely no knowledge whatsoever to do--let the stupid and unskilled Mexicans do that work."
posted
Quotes 2, 3 and 4 are attacking the liberals While the first and the last one seem absent of context Rush often will make the most reckless of comments that viewed in their context seem much more acceptable
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
His argument is that the media brought race as a factor, if he's correct then its not his fault he pointed it out. In fact it may very well be accurate to the extent that the media does want to see Black QBs succeed. I definitely see several articles a year about how many Black QBs are in the league. Personally I doubt whether McNabb is overrated because he's Black and I definitely don't think he's overrated. Still its just a sports opinion and hardly political at all. Rush Limbaugh is being hanged or something that is incredibly minor compared to any number of more racially insensitive comments made by Whites and Blacks. This simply another case of the liberal media out to lynch a conservative.
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posted
Oh please. He hung himself. It was bound to happen once he got an audience that doesn't want to listen to his political opinions.
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posted
Here's something I'v ewondered about while reading this thread.
Is it only racism if you say someone got something they didn't deserve because of race? Would it also be racist to say someone *didn't* get something because of race?
I mean, every time anyone throws the race card... is that not an indictment of their opponent as racist? And, in calling someone a racist without any proof, or just because you believe it is so... does that then make you a racist, because you're saying that the other person's color is blinding him or her?
Moreover, do you have to have a position of power to be racist? White racism against blacks is most commonly talked about, or whit eracism in general... because white people generally tend to be those in authority (or at least viewed as such). But what about the black man who says all whites are racist? Is he not stereotyping all whites, and is he then not being racist himself?
Some people will read racist intent into everything, regardless of what is said. They see hte world in colors, constantly. Are these people racist?
I know this is a little tangential to the Rush debate, but this thread got me wondering.
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posted
Only whites can practice racial hate Because they hold the power of the state When other groups produce such racist slurs It's due to their oppression by the man And they should not be judged as harsh
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posted
Everybody's talking in hypotheticals, but they're forgetting that the opposite was said, by both Dennis Rodman and Isaiah Thomas, about Larry Bird. No heads were served up on platters, no resignations were called for, and although Thomas, at least, later apologized, his apology basically consisted of, "It was a joke!"
But in that instance, as in this one, it cracks me up that people were accusing Rodman and Thomas of being biased when, in fact, they were trying to point out bias on the part of others.
This would be like me accusing Orson Scott Card of being a Mormon science fiction writer, and therefore, since I brought it up, I must be a Mormon science fiction writer.
posted
Just hearing the name "Rush Limbaugh" makes my blood pressure go up. He is a poltroon and a bully of the worst kind. He is a rabble rouser of the worst kind, playing on peoples emotions and fears similar to what Joseph McCarthy did with his witch hunt for "communists".
Hmm, could Demosthenes have loosely been based on Limbaugh?
Aside: when I did a Google search for Demosthenes (to verify spelling) the first reference that appeared is for "Shadow of the Hegemon.
Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I believe Ender's Game was written in 1978 (the year I was born!) long before Limbaugh was famous. That is if I'm not mixing my books, and Valentine and Peter are mentioned in there as Locke and Demosthenes.
posted
The hard cold fact of the matter is that Rush Limbaugh is WRONG.
Donovan Mcnabb has led his team to the NFC CHAMPIONSHIP twice in the last two years, only to lose to the soon to be Superbowl Champs. (agreeing with Xavier) I've seen Donovan Mcnabb single handely put his team on his back and win the game more than a handfull of times.
People can say that "He's no Elway" but remember, it took Elway like 12 years to win a Super Bowl, and McNabb has been in the league about 5, so comparisons are silly at this point.
How many Quarterbacks that have been playing for the last 4 or five years have been playing BETTER than McNabb? Maybe two or three, right?
So placing Mcnabb 4th amongst about 100 starting QB's makes him the ELITE of his class.
So Rush Limbaugh was flat out totally wrong.
That's what makes this whole issue so idiotique.
Maybe if he would have chosen Dante Culpepper he might have been more correct, but he chose one of the BEST QB'S in the game and then tried to credit his success as a creation of the "liberal" media to "create" a good black QB.
Rush was wrong, and his comments were just stupid.
...but then this brings us back to the basics, if you are a live and die hard flinging right winger and see Rush Limbaugh as some genius (like newfoundlogic) you'll be able to rationalize it anyway you like.
"Oh look at how the liberal media is hanging another conservative for speaking the truth!"
...but if you're on the sane side of the fence, you'll realize (what you probably realized a long time ago) that Rush is just an idiotique blow hard that says what he needs to say to keep his loyal fanbase happy.
To me, Rush Limbaugh is no more of a wiseman than Howard Stern. The two guys are peas in a pod.
Now, Rush can look like a Martyr crucified by the "liberal media" to all his diehard conservatives. Yippeee!
I find it hilarious...
...a total scream that it looks like Rush Has been knee deep involved in a Oxycontin ring.
Oooooopsy. You mean to tell me Mr. "Don't do drugs" was a f-ing illegal pain killer addict, buying mass quantities through illegal drug dealers?
posted
Interesting article on Slate, with the first actual hard statistics I've seen in the discussion http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/
quote: Rush Limbaugh Was Right Donovan McNabb isn't a great quarterback, and the media do overrate him because he is black. By Allen Barra Posted Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 3:33 PM PT
In his notorious ESPN comments last Sunday night, Rush Limbaugh said he never thought the Philadelphia Eagles' Donovan McNabb was "that good of a quarterback."
If Limbaugh were a more astute analyst, he would have been even harsher and said, "Donovan McNabb is barely a mediocre quarterback." But other than that, Limbaugh pretty much spoke the truth. Limbaugh lost his job for saying in public what many football fans and analysts have been saying privately for the past couple of seasons.
... McNabb has started for the Eagles since the 2000 season. In that time, the Eagles offense has never ranked higher than 10th in the league in yards gained. In fact, their 10th-place rank in 2002 was easily their best; in their two previous seasons, they were 17th in a 32-team league. They rank 31st so far in 2003.
In contrast, the Eagles defense in those four seasons has never ranked lower than 10th in yards allowed. In 2001, they were seventh; in 2002 they were fourth; this year they're fifth. It shouldn't take a football Einstein to see that the Eagles' strength over the past few seasons has been on defense, and Limbaugh is no football Einstein, which is probably why he spotted it.
The news that the Eagles defense has "carried" them over this period should be neither surprising nor controversial to anyone with access to simple NFL statistics—or for that matter, with access to a television. Yet, McNabb has received an overwhelming share of media attention and thus the credit. Now why is this?
Let's look at a quarterback with similar numbers who also plays for a team with a great defense. I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson one of the best quarterbacks in pro football—which is how McNabb is often referred to. In fact, I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson, on the evidence of his 10-year NFL career, much more than mediocre. Yet, Johnson's NFL career passer rating, as of last Sunday, is 7.3 points higher than McNabb's (84.8 to 77.5), he has completed his passes at a higher rate (61.8 percent to 56.4 percent), and has averaged significantly more yards per pass (6.84 to 5.91). McNabb excels in just one area, running, where he has gained 2,040 yards and scored 14 touchdowns to Johnson's 467 and seven. But McNabb has also been sacked more frequently than Johnson—more than once, on average, per game, which negates much of the rushing advantage.
In other words, in just about every way, Brad Johnson has been a more effective quarterback than McNabb and over a longer period.
And even if you say the stats don't matter and that a quarterback's job is to win games, Johnson comes out ahead. Johnson has something McNabb doesn't, a Super Bowl ring, which he went on to win after his Bucs trounced McNabb's Eagles in last year's NFC championship game by a score of 27-10. The Bucs and Eagles were regarded by everyone as having the two best defenses in the NFL last year. When they played in the championship game, the difference was that the Bucs defense completely bottled up McNabb while the Eagles defense couldn't stop Johnson.
posted
Who cares if Rush Limbaugh was wrong? Since when did we lynch people because they were wrong about sports? Next people are going to start claiming Bush is a bad president because the Texas Rangers are a bad team. You can say Bush is a bad president because he's a conservative but don't say its because he owned a bad baseball team. The same goes for Rush, say he's a bad personality because he's conservative, but don't say its because he's supposedly an idiot about sports.
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posted
Bush is a bad pres. because he owns/owned a baseball team that didn't make the world series this year! Posts: 851 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Knee-jerk and utter reactionary tripe this is Right-wingers obviously racists must be if they Mention or talk about race at all; Hating must suck, or no?
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posted
Even if Rush is right about black quarterbacks, picking out McNabb in this way is just rude. It's like going up to a black student at an affirmative action university and telling him, to his face, "You are only here because of your race." Or worse yet, going on national TV and saying "Bob Sax is only at University X because of his race." That's very bad manners.
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posted
I am not enthusiastic enough about either Limbaugh or football to care much about this subject. But I will say this: If there is to be a scandal about this, there should also be a scandal every time some liberal says that the only reason Clarence Thomas made it to the Supreme Court was because he is black.
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posted
He was talking about McNabb's talent in particular at the time though. He couldn't say, "Well there are some Black quarterbacks who are overrated by the media because they are Black." *wink wink* There are only so many Black QBs in the league and don't say that its because of racism because there are few white receivers and defensive linemen. There are few white basketball players and very very few Black hockey players. That's just how it happened to be.
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quote:If there is to be a scandal about this, there should also be a scandal every time some liberal says that the only reason Clarence Thomas made it to the Supreme Court was because he is black.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that.
It seems to me like the only reason he made it to the SC is that he's willing to make outrageous rulings. Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I have heard a lot of people claim Clarence Thomas only made the bench because he was Black. I expect the next the justice appointed will be Hispanic and the fact the he/she is Hispanic is the reason why they'll be there.
That was a joke in reference to my post and he owned the Texas Rangers.
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quote: Even if Rush is right about black quarterbacks, picking out McNabb in this way is just rude. It's like going up to a black student at an affirmative action university and telling him, to his face, "You are only here because of your race." Or worse yet, going on national TV and saying "Bob Sax is only at University X because of his race." That's very bad manners.
Does this post not bother anybody else as much as it does me? Should the guys who do commentary on sports shows temper what they say to accomodate players feelings?
Would it be equally rude for, say, Ebert to write a review of a film and say, "But as long as idiots keep paying money to see (Insert Annoying Actor's Name Here) filmmakers will continue to crank this garbage out." What if the Annoying Actor is watching? What if his mother is? Isn't that like barging up to a kid in front of all of his friends and family and saying, "The only reason anyone would like you is if they're stupid!"
Maybe it is, but that's what criticism is. That's what commentary is. It's analyzing or taking in a peice of art or a situation, and then providing insight or judgement on what you've observed.
Do we really want to call it "rude" if the subsequent judgements might offend the person in question? Should unfavorable opinions not be voiced, out of concern for the other?
Is this post rude, because I feel Destineer is wrong, and I'm posting that where he can see it?
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posted
I think Rush should have said what he thought. That's what they hired him for, right?
I'm also not sure why anyone would bother to tune in to hear what he thinks about sports, other than in hopes that he'll say somthing dumb or contraversial. He's no real sportswriter, after all.
Given this, I don't think he needed to resign.
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posted
According to what everyone on Sunday NFL Countdown said they had, "No idea." and he "betrayed our trust." Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I think the only good thing Limbaugh did was resign. It is very telling that he singled McNabb out not for his performance, but specifically because he is black.
quote: "When you sit there and pinpoint a guy because of the color of his skin, and not really pretty much on his performance or the things he's been able to do while he's been in the league, that kind of makes you look like you're the bad guy."
If he had instead said that he thought that McNabb was overrated and that his performance was not up to NFL standards that would have produced the controversy for which he was hired. Instead, he choose to play the race card. If he hadn't resigned, he should have been fired for being devisive instead of controversial.
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