posted
You can't control someone else's thoughts. Back when I was a young hottie, I know for a fact that a was featured in a few fantasies, despite my modest dress and total lack of interest in them.
It was creepy, yeah, but the only one degraded by it was the fella with his hand in his pants.
Personally, I feel more empowered when I speak my mind without shame, without worrying what so-and-so will think, than I would by making myself an object of lust for strangers. I understand what they mean when they say the felt empowered, but I prefer to expose myself in a different way.
It all goes back to finding strength in vulnerability. Getting naked is really the easier of the two, but I like my version better.
It's really cool to be an adult, and get all embarrassed about stuff like this. I even had a conversation with CT about erotica last week, with not a glimmer of shame. I would have been mortified when I was younger (more out of fear of what people would think than out of any disinclination).
It's really, really cool to be a grown-up. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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No matter what my opnion of the practice of posing for and enjoying yourself to nude pictures, rape would undoubtedly be a traumatic event. I find it disturbing that you assume it wouldn't be.
Saying they wouldn't feel in the slightest degraded is saying the women who pose for these pictures already feel worthless and trashy as possible, so there's no farther down to go.
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posted
I don't think Ayelar was saying they wouldn't feel degraded by it, or that it wouldn't be a traumatic experience. She was saying that they aren't degraded, ie: they are not of any less value, morality, etc., because of something that was done to them against their will.
Which raises the question, does "degraded" refer to someone's emotions/feelings about something, or is it a measurement of something (value? worth?) external to a person?
posted
Oh! That's much, MUCH better. And correct, I believe.
I need to adjust my radar, I think. It got knocked out of wack and I'm seeing the worst possible intrepretation of everyone's posts out of self-defense.
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posted
To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace: a scandal that degraded the participants. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase. To reduce in worth or value: degrade a currency. To impair in physical structure or function. Geology. To lower or wear by erosion or weathering. To cause (an organic compound) to undergo degradation.
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quote: Synonyms: degrade, abase, debase, demean, 2humble, humiliate These verbs mean to deprive of self-esteem or self-worth. Degrade implies reduction to a state of shame or disgrace: If I pitied you for crying... you should spurn such pity.... Rise, and don't degrade yourself into an abject reptile! (Emily Brontė).
quote: Can you imagine the female equivalent of Dennis Franz carrying a network show for over 10 years?
Katherine Manheim (spelling?) has been a strong leading force in The Practice for a long while and she has outlasted the more "beautiful" people on that show. (Dylan Mcdermitt and his wife from the show)
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posted
She survived the latest sweep because they got rid of all the people that cost the most. Three cheers for lower paychecks!
I don't think her one experience stacks up against the rest of Hollywood experience. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure they are most aliens and the experience there is unto itself.
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posted
I once attended a Bible Study that talked about 'defilement'. We concluded (and there was some scriptural reference for this, but I don't remember it) that you are defiled by things you do, not by what is done to you.
In other words, you defile yourself by passing gossip, but are not defiled by being gossipped about (though it is painful). I think the same thing could be said of rape. As horrible as such an experience would be, the soul isn't tarnished by it. The one who is defiled is the man who abuses his power, not the victim.
By that standard, I suppose the women may have defiled themselves by abusing their beauty, and causing others to sin.
It's sort of weird for me to be saying such things after all these years, but I think there is a fundamental truth in what I thought of as the law of defilement.
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Bea Arthur, Betty White, Rue McClanahan, and Estelle Getty on Golden Girls for seven years.
Tyne Daly and Sharon Gless on Cagney and Lacey for six years (1982-1988, plus movies in 1994, 1995 and 1996)
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quote: I don't think her one experience stacks up against the rest of Hollywood experience
Sure, it doesn't stack up to the rest of the hollywood standard but I was just giving an example that it is possible.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Olivia, I can totally relate to the posing nude for your lover bit. It IS empowering to have that effect on someone whom you very much want to have that effect upon. Yet it's awkward, too. When I found out that my hubby had photo-shopped my images, I found it very weird. Almost like it wasn't me anymore. I don't think I could stand to have my image perverted by a medium that cares nothing for me as a person.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Most women, having been raped, do tend to report feeling degraded and a sense of guilt. This, again, fits exactly to my point. They feel as though they are of less worth and somehow at fault for the actions of another person over which they had almost no control. There is no intrinsic reason for them to feel this way. I believe that it is due in large part to society's attitudes towards female sexuality.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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My anthropology class is reading a study of the Ju/'hoansi people of the Dobe region between Botswana and Namibia (also known as Bushmen, though that's not entriely accurate as they clear the bush from their campsites and their word for the bush, "tsi", is very negative in connotation but anyway...). Ju children grow up learning to accept their sexuality as something that is to be both natural and enjoyed. Entire families sleep under a single blanket so children are faced with their parents sexuality early on in life and develop a sense of their own sexuality through play. A little "Brave New World" in that sense, actually, though promiscuity after a certain age is frowned upon. The Ju are very much based on family ties so they take adultery very seriously. My point is, if people from another culture (in this case the Ju/'hoansi) were to see pictures of naked women they would or might think nothing of it. It's simply a matter of what beliefs and behaviors your culture views as normal. Hence, there really isn't, nor can there be, a universal moral standard in regards to sexuality (or anything else for that matter) since your perception of morals are defined by your culture as well.
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quote:I believe that it is due in large part to society's attitudes towards female sexuality.
I would say that that is manifestly false. It seems to me like if a man were raped he would feel just as degraded. This reminds me of what I read about a society in South America. This is very free about sex, with men and women having pretty much whenever they want, with whoever they want. One problem: If a young lady declines to participate, the custom is that the men get to take her into the woods and gang rape her. Would you say that she feels any less degraded? I, for one, don't think so.
Posts: 285 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I would take any weird sounding anthropological info on sex with a grain of salt. I think it was the study of Samoa by Margaret Mead that turned out to be wrong. The method of collecting information was skewing the picture. One problem was she assumed the culture believed in telling the truth to outsiders.
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posted
Sort of like here when a newbie shows up and asks who is going to play Ender in the movie? <laughs>
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quote:I would say that that is manifestly false. It seems to me like if a man were raped he would feel just as degraded. This reminds me of what I read about a society in South America. This is very free about sex, with men and women having pretty much whenever they want, with whoever they want. One problem: If a young lady declines to participate, the custom is that the men get to take her into the woods and gang rape her. Would you say that she feels any less degraded? I, for one, don't think so.
On what basis have you arrived at this conclusion? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying: how do you know?
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
ae: I don't have any hard evidence, but I don't think Squicky does either. If you are to separate "feelings of degradedness" from other forms of emotional trauma, then it is likely that no real evidence is possible. On the other hand, I have read about rape from women of many different viewpoints, and, as far as I can tell, the emotional trauma that comes with it is pretty much universal, even in sub-cultures where there is no real moral stigma attached to any kind of sexuality.
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