posted
*grin* Typical liberal - coming up with wonderful ways to spend other people's money, and acts like it's a favor.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I liked the rest of your post. The explanation of alienation makes sense. The proposed solution fails to account for all factors, though.
Primarily, I don't think public opinion can be bought off, and I don't think the church should spend tithing money trying.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The public works commitment is a gesture saying that you are ready to help the community on community's terms. You can keep the temples and the ritutals, but you aren't removing your civic commitment from the community qua American community.
It's not so much you trying to buy us off, as much as it's a reminder that while we have some differences and some secrets, we are all human, all in this together, and you are going to spend as much money and time in celebrating those differences and trying to gain more converts as you are in helping the community despite their religious inclinations. Everyone deserves good public works. A commitment to public works just reminds everyone that the LDS are, and are interested in remaining, a part of the public. The temples cresting the sky line of so many a major city don't quite send that message.
posted
It's being bought off. The members are all citizens, and work together as such to produce those public works. Why should the church foot the bill?
Is that the solution for larger Latino acceptance, as well? Buy us stuff?
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If the question is being civically involved, that is encouraged. There's a letter from the First Presidency every year that tells everyone to vote and get involved, and to not use the church buildings or resources to promote a particular party or candidate.
posted
The LDS church already does participate quite a bit in public work, but it often does not publish that fact, for whatever reason. Missionaries (and I assume that this would still apply to the elderly missionary couples in Nauvoo) are required to provide public service in their area on a regular basis. For example, in Bulgaria, we provided free English lessons to anyone who wanted to come (and spent church money on the materials we needed to do so). My brother, who was in the Fresno area, provided service at wildlife shelters, among other things. I would be willing to bet that there is a church-run geneological library in Nauvoo (such geneological libraries are open to anyone to use, since Mormons aren't the only people interested in geneology).
I thought it interesting that, in the segment, they specifically mentioned that the church will be paying taxes on many tax-exempt parcels of land (property tax are one major way that counties fund public works), which I thought was quite amazing. How many other instances can you think of people knowingly paying taxes that are not required?
posted
The LDS Church is already heavily involved in humanitary and charitable efforts worldwide. In countries with poor infrastructure, the LDS Church is aiding in setting it up where it can.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Irami, the solution doesn't match the analysis. If your analysis is correct, those conditions will remain and therefor so will the problem, no matter how many libraries are built by the church.
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posted
I know the church does public work. All churches do public work. I'm talking about bold, huge, expensive, brazen, err on the side of right public works, right here at home, and that cannot be construed as a means of conversion. The Jewish Hospitals aren't trying to convert anybody. Catholic Hospitals or all of those Jesuit Schools, though you'd have to watch out for that, but Jesuit Schools aren't nearly as much about Catholicism as they are about a rigorous and classical education.
I know the church spends more money on non-LDS recruitment charity work as opposed to say, me, but we are talking about economies of scale. We are talking about good works at a people without an agenda other than you believe that the people should have good works.
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Kat,
I don't think so, because everyone will go to the library, just like everyone goes to Mt. Sinai. And there isn't an impetus for conversion when you check in. What I'm talking about is kind of like what the robber barons did right before they died.
quote:I know the church spends more money on non-LDS recruitment charity work as opposed to say, me, but we are talking about economies of scale. We are talking about good works at a people without an agenda other than you believe that the people should have good works.
What about the payment of property taxes that are not owed?
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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The LDS Church's charity work is no more or less for recruitment purposes than other religions' charity work.
I would like to see a percentage of charitable and humanitarian spending by number of church members of the LDS Church compared to other religions. I think many would be surprised by the tremendous amount the LDS Church does.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Now this is an example of good Mormon pr Not smug. Not heavy-handed. The emphasis is on helping those who aren't of our own faith [there is a perception that LDS are great at providing charity for their own, but don't reach out to those in need of other faiths]: Voices to Afghanistan.
---- [As a member of the public affairs committee, I worked on this project, and I pitched it to the SF Chronicle (although it was an easy sell because the people involved are interesting and the project itself is unique and cool)]
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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If it were anywhere else accept Nauvoo, that wouldn't be an issue. Sorry, I'm just the messenger on this one. You can talk yourself into believing that non-LDS are comfortable with intentions of the Church, but you know, it's not true.
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I don't know what they are. I know the Catholic Church does more good than the government in Los Angeles. They feed and clothe the poor, the ugly, the diseased and the disabled without qualification. The breadth of the churches commitment is astounding, enormous, breathtaking, and without an eye towards conversion.
The LDS are at a disadvantage, but putting up a Cedars would be a step in the right direction.
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Nice program, Zal. It seems like you did good work, and the genuiness comes through in the article.
I don't mind the smug. Put your name on it. I think the church shouldn't hide its identity. I mean, if it's immediately clear that it's not for conversion, at least by the reasonably sensible non-conspiracy theorists, than a loud proclamation that this deed was for the good of the city and brought to them by the Church isn't a bad idea at all.
quote:From 1985 to 2002, the Church has distributed 51,299 tons of donated clothing, provided 40,977 tons of food to the hungry, provided 5,262 tons of medical equipment and supplies for the sick, and given 4,386 tons of educational supplies to those seeking knowledge.
The Church has provided more than $544.8 million in total assistance to needy individuals in 150 countries
I can tell you a lot of that aid (most) was to those who are not part of the LDS Church.
quote:They, the Mormons, feed and clothe the poor, the ugly, the diseased and the disabled without qualification. The breadth of the churches commitment is astounding, enormous, breathtaking, and without an eye towards conversion.
Words in italics added by me to make another valid statement.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Who are you to say what the intentions are of the LDS Church in providing humanitarian and charitable aid and what the intentions of the Catholic Church are not? The way I see it the Catholic Church has the same purposes in providing such aid as the LDS Church.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:If it were anywhere else accept Nauvoo, that wouldn't be an issue. Sorry, I'm just the messenger on this one. You can talk yourself into believing that non-LDS are comfortable with intentions of the Church, but you know, it's not true.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. I don't presume to speak to what non-LDS people are or aren't comfortable with. Just because the property taxes I specifically mentioned are in Nauvoo they mean nothing? I see it as an attempt by the Church to show that they are trying to contribute to community with no ulterior motive, but like I said I don't know how non-LDS would see it. How do you interpret it?
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:From 1985 to 2002, the Church has distributed 51,299 tons of donated clothing, provided 40,977 tons of food to the hungry, provided 5,262 tons of medical equipment and supplies for the sick, and given 4,386 tons of educational supplies to those seeking knowledge.
The Church has provided more than $544.8 million in total assistance to needy individuals in 150 countries
The problem is that I don't know what any of those numbers mean. I'll be honest, the Church is a Church. The bar is higher, I expect money to go to poor people. We are still talking about economies of scale, and I don't where that 551 million over 17 years, where it was going, why, and were there any strings, because sometimes strings exist. If you want, you can blame the Catholics of old and the Protestants of new for muddying the waters between basic aide and conversion. It's a tough road to hoe for no other reason than conversion can be seen by believers as the ultimate form of humanitarian aide. It's the problem that many Americans have with subsidizing faith based initiatives.
The second problem is that I don't know how much of the assistance was tied to some sort of ecumenical agenda. That's what separates the Mt. Sinai hospital, or even secular community based organizations, from a church. All of the religions are going to have a problem with it, just like all politicans are going to have a problem with it: "Did he do it to get votes, or did he do it because he believed in it." I think it's a hard pitch for anyone to sell, especially when on the other end you have to keep up conversion, you know, that army of well-clad young men and women that the church is duely proud of. I don't envy the PR part arm of Church, it's a hard sell and I don't know how much money we are talking about in the total budget and where it is being allocated and why, that's why I shy away from hard numbers until I can put them in scope.
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Geez, it's an incredibly hard sell. Can someone dispel a rumor for me? I've heard that there is a fund for financial assistance for members of the church. It's a great idea in theory, we are talking about people who need resources receiving them, and I'm sure it's taken advantage of by perfidious, albeit poor, fakers. But can't you see how a program like that, even with all of its benevolent intentions can be seen as just a little bit good and a little bit bad. It depends on the size and scope of the program, of course, and I don't know what kind of numbers we are talking about in terms of church governed member assistance, but you can see how the exclusivity of such a program may be looked askance at by the poor non-believers.
A loud and genuine commitment to public works doesn't need to be, or even be seen, as self -serving. Apparently you think that the church has already done or is currently doing and adequate amount of it, but something isn't selling. There needs to be more inclusive bent, is all. ____
A few years ago, I was talking to a group of the philanthropy chairs of the greek system in college about the importance of changing their name from philanthropy chairs to community service organizers. The sororities approach philanthropy with all of the bad connotations that that term carries. They weren't members of the community, they were in their own community, which every now and again believed in slogging down the hill and helping out the rabble, before going back up and having an iced tea. The girls were nice, honest, and genuinely benevolent, but considered the community a "they," but didn't understand why the community was wary of them. Anyway, that's a aside, I think I've said all I know on the subject, and a little bit more that I don't, so I'll let the discussion continue.
posted
A town, hah! I have spent time living in an entire UNIVERSE conceived and executed by the god (DM) known as Tom Davidson, and it's a great place, even if time moves extremely slowly there sometimes.
[ December 03, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
You're not letting the Church practice its religion, Irami. The LDS Church, just like the Catholic Church, really does believe in Christ's biblical commandment to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the sick. That really is the motivation.
You know, the Church has grown from six original members to 11 million over the past 170 years despite times of incredible adversity and persecution. Now it has managed to spread across the earth, building temples, and it enjoys considerably more acceptance and has the resources to truly be a force for good in the world, something it pursues vigorously and most of the time without calling too much attention to itself. It is accomplishing its mission. But even after all that, it still needs a good PR man who really knows what would be the best path for it to take.
Get your resume in now, Irami! Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Just to be clear, there are four different areas that seem to be being discussed here:
Church Welfare Program: This is the one that provides for needy Latter-day Saints. It is funded through fast offering and administered through local congregations. All the other programs may benefit some LDS members, but they are mainly overall community-focused relief efforts.
Church Humanitarian Services: This program focuses on emergency disaster relief and programs to provide food, hygeine, and education and medical supplies to third world countries -- often in cooperation with other religious charities and non-religious ngo's. As I understand it, funds come through donations from church members, donations of goods and materials by church members and businesses, some fast offering monies (I may be wrong about this), and funds from Latter-day Saint Charities.
Latter-day Saint Charities: The official 501c non-profit. It makes grants to other LDS projects (including those organized by local organizations -- see below) with a focus on projects that benefit non-LDS and are on a large school (grants of $5,000 - $10,000 and above). It is funded via donations and via profits from church-owned companies (Bonneville Communications, etc.).
The actions of local members: This has become a larger focus for the LDS Church. This is what category the Voices to Afghanistan project fits in. Basically local congregations organize service projects, donations, etc. These are sometimes organized by the stake [a Mormon stake is roughly equivalent to a diocese and is made up of 4-12 congregations] public affairs committee in coordination with individual congregations or by the congregation's youth group, or women's group, or sometimes simply by a group of like-minded folks in the congregation. These service projects can either be one-time deals or an ongoing commitment [monthly turns in a soup kitchen, Christmas in April, painting and cleaning a home for assisted living, Habitat for Humanity, sub for Santa -- the basic stuff that religious groups do]. My stake president has recently asked that each congregation do at least one substantial community-focused service project a year.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Who cares what anyone else thinks? The LDS Church should be concerned about what God has said it should be concerned about. You'll never convince those who say service provided by the LDS Church is only done to convert others that that is not the purpose. The Catholic Church, the Baptist Church and etc. provide assistance for the purpose of conversion as much as the LDS Church does. 'Nuf said.
posted
I'm not sure about the LDS Church, but I assume their attitude toward charity frowns on bragging about, just as in other religions.
People often interpret the fact the missionaries do public or charitable works as attempts to "bribe" someone into the religion. If there is a conversion aspect to these works, it's based on the idea of demonstrating what it means to live a Christian life.
"Let them know you are Christian by your love" type of thing.
posted
There is also the point that the Church does its best not to flaunt the good deeds that it does. "Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth" and so on.
In my opinion, proclaiming loudly that all of these wonderful things have been done by the Church would smack of a desire to convert, whereas quietly stating that yes, the Church does participate in humanitarian efforts worldwide shows an interest in community without beating it into the heads of those receiving the benefit that "The LDS church did this for you, so you should be grateful to them." This leaves the benefactors free to be grateful without feeling obligated.
quote:Can someone dispel a rumor for me? I've heard that there is a fund for financial assistance for members of the church. It's a great idea in theory, we are talking about people who need resources receiving them, and I'm sure it's taken advantage of by perfidious, albeit poor, fakers.
I think that you may be referring to the Perpetual Education Fund (introduced by the church within the last year or two). The money is obtained through donations from Church members and is designed to provide small loans to Church members (returned missionaries) in poor countries, so that they can learn a trade. This way, they learn a trade/skill (when they would probably otherwise be unable to do so), support themselves and their families, and (hopefully) help to improve the overall economic situation of their area. I am not sure what the screening process is like for those who wish to obtain such loans.
posted
Besides being opposed to principles, bribing people into joining simply doesn't work long-term. No one sticks with a religion out of gratefullness.
I think the Perpetual Education Fund goes mostly to return missionaries and young women in poorer countries. It's modeled after the Pepetual Emigration Fund, which was set up by Brigham Young to help the poorer Saints gear up to head West. Once they got West, they were supposed to repay the loan to enable other to follow. Same with Education fund.
You might mean fast offerings. That's the church welfare system Zal described above.
posted
Oops, sorry, Kat. I slipped into speaking of the churches of Christ collectively again. I can see how that would get confusing.
A good many conservatives in the churches of Christ have a persecution complex, but rarely did we get more than a little name-calling. Which, of course, we ought to be used to, since we do it to each other.
Not trying to derail the thread into talking about other churches--just making jokes.
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
You're right. The Church of God in Christ is the largest African-American Pentecostal organization in the US. Founded in 1897, it has over 5 million members in 15,300 or so churches. (According to the 11th edition Handbook of Denominations in the United States.)
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posted
I had no idea Church of Christ was so small. There are so many of them here in Birmingham. I see them all over. LDS are so rare here that I never met one before I decided to join the church (based on what I had learned about it online). That's really interesting.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
The LDS church has often donated money to other humanitarian organization including the red cross, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and Catholic community services. Its hard to see how the LDS church could benefit by giving money to other churchs to aid them with helping the poor and needy.
LDS Humanitarian services donates food, aid kits, quilts, leper bandages, first aid items and medicine through out the world. The people who recieve these items never know they were sent by Mormons.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
ana, churches of Christ are very common in the South, especially in Tennessee (and an overflow into north Alabama) and Texas. This is partly due to a concentration of membership and partly due to church splits over what many denoms would consider trivial issues.
According to Flavil Yeakley (a statistics expert and professor of Bible at Harding U), the churches of Christ are more widely distributed than any other church in relation to our size, but there are still many more of us in the South than elsewhere. Our numbers in Birmingham are likely misleading.
In recent years, we have been growing, but so slowly we are not keeping pace with the population; that's how it's been since our last bout of growth in the fifties, discounting the bubble produced by the International Church of Christ that split from us.
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote: The people who recieve these items never know they were sent by Mormons.
Actually I don't think that's quite true. I remember helping pack hygiene kits for Freshman Orientation at BYU and in every bag, there was a card in ten languages telling who it was from and a small message. I sort of assumed that those same cards went in every thing they sent.
Also, I don't think it's fast offerings that go toward worldwide operations, but the Humanitarian fund. I'm probably wrong, but I thought Fast offerings were more on a local level.
posted
Well, I suppose us Mormons will have to get used to "otherness," as that has been prophesied to be our lot in life. We are asked to be "in the world, but not of it," and Jesus indicated that people who try to live that way will be looked down upon.
However, I still don't see myself as any different than non-members as a person. If you prick us, do we not bleed? As I see it, if its alright to see Mormons as wierd and different, I don't see a reason to see Muslims, blacks, or any other labeled minority group as wiered and different.
Mmmm . . . Speaker for the Dead comes to mind for this subject.
posted
Oh yeah, leper bandages are great. It turns out that the best ones are still the kind you crochet by hand from plain cotton, so every so often someone will offer you a bag with thread, instructions, and an envelope to send them off in. There's a little old lady in my ward who produces 3 a week, and does baby booties for newborn kits as well. Posts: 335 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
"As I see it, if its alright to see Mormons as wierd and different, I don't see a reason to see Muslims, blacks, or any other labeled minority group as wiered and different."
Oh, don't worry. You aren't NEARLY as persecuted yet as blacks, Muslims, or most other labeled minority groups. Just wait until black Muslims start moving en masse into small Midwestern towns, and see how they react....
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Missionaries (and I assume that this would still apply to the elderly missionary couples in Nauvoo) are required to provide public service in their area on a regular basis. For example, in Bulgaria, we provided free English lessons to anyone who wanted to come (and spent church money on the materials we needed to do so). My brother, who was in the Fresno area, provided service at wildlife shelters, among other things. I would be willing to bet that there is a church-run geneological library in Nauvoo (such geneological libraries are open to anyone to use, since Mormons aren't the only people interested in geneology). ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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